Speaking with
Will Yakowicz
http://www.israelshamir.net/English/young-man.htm
Modern
journalism is more akin to warfare than a search
for truth. I have been misquoted so many
times that its a wonder I speak to
anyone at all. Dont speak to
strangers is what they told us in
kindergarten, and Im sure Id be
better off if I followed that advice.
Journalists turn my instructive metaphors
into hateful headlines. One time I told a
Russian interviewer that, It is
possible to extinguish the Jew within.
I thought it was a poetic way to describe
overcoming our inner fears and anti-social
behaviours; hostile bloggers preferred to
translate it as Shamir
calls for the killing of Jews.
I
recently received a letter from the young
American journalist Will Yakowicz. He wrote
that speaking with me and creating my
literary portrait would be like a dream come
true for him. I was myself once an eager
young cub reporter, and his stated desire did
not strike me as too unusual. Whether it is
good for me or not, I always look for
opportunities to answer my critics and
support my comrades. Will flew from New York
to Moscow and we had our interview; I
answered all his questions even though they
became increasingly combative as the
interview progressed. In order to avoid any
possible misinterpretations, I am publishing
the entire unedited conversation as recorded
by Dictaphone: http://www.israelshamir.net/interview/WILLIAM.MP3,
and the following partial and loose
transcript:
Will:
It is a fantastic opportunity to speak to a
famous writer
You are one of the
most important journalists this year; you are
a champion of freedom of speech
Why
were you chosen to do what you are doing for
Wikileaks?
Shamir:
We are not chosen; we are choosing to do what
we do... Here it is an exciting story, every
journalist would do the same.
Will:
You present Assange as a hero.
Shamir:
In the modern world, we have no heroes. The
last hero was the hero of Richard
Aldingtons book Death of a Hero;
now we feel it is pathetic. I presented
Julian Assange as a comic strip figure (like
modern Superman) so people would be able to
relate to him. Especially since my own
acquaintance with Julian was so very short
and superficial.
Will:
Why did he introduce you as Adam?
Shamir:
This is the name I was given in Church, and I
often use it. On the cover of my books it
says: Israel Adam Shamir.
Will:
Youve been to Belarus. How did you like
the Belarusian dictator?
Shamir:
Ive been invited as an observer to the
Belarus presidential elections, went to a few
voting stations, it seemed to be all right.
In the evening there were disturbances; I
also saw it. I personally have no doubt that
he won fairly.
Will:
What do you like in Moscow?
Shamir:
It is my first winter in the cold climate for
many years and I enjoy it as recollections of
my childhood come back: frost, skies, skating,
snow
Will:
You wrote that destruction of al Aqsa Mosque
would bring to the end of the world. How far
from are we now?
Shamir:
It is difficult for me to relate to it now.
That was part of my writing long time ago,
when I lived in the Holy Land and experienced
this feeling daily. Now I write about
something different, and the thing you speak
of remained as a bleak memory.
Will:
Still do you believe the world will end soon?
Shamir:
No. People always prophesy the end of
the world; they always do it. I translated a
Jewish Renaissance man Abraham Zacuto; he
prophesied the end of the world in
1515. He died in 1515.
Will:
So it was the end of his world?
Shamir:
Exactly. I think when people prophesy the end
of the world they feel their end is
approaching. Much of it is connected to age;
when one feels ones end is coming one
interprets it as the end of the world.
Will:
Now do you feel the end is coming?
Shamir:
No
Will:
And where will you go when you die?
Shamir:
If I shall be a good boy, Ill go back
to creator, to God. Imagine a bonfire; you
pick a burning log out, walk with it and then
you return the log into bonfire. This is our
life. We are taken out of the great fire of
God, and eventually we return to this bonfire.
Will:
Usually Hell is described as fire; but you
think Fire is a better way to describe God?
Shamir:
This is just a metaphor.
Will:
What is love for you?
Shamir:
Joseph Brodsky in his Great Elegy for John
Donne said that earthly love is
but a poet's duty, while love
celestial is an abbot's flesh.
Will:
do you go to the church often?
Shamir:
every Sunday.
Will:
what do you like about Orthodox churches?
Shamir:
they are most similar to Jerusalem Temple of
old; they also have the same structure of
Inner Sanctum, of a place for priests and a
place for laity. So they are quite archaic
but also very much alive. There are many
churches with archaic rites in Jerusalem, but
the Russian church is particularly vibrant.
Will:
have you ever seen an angel?
Shamir:
not sure. Angels are a figure of speech; we
do not see them as our ancestors did.
Will:
are we trained not to see angels?
Shamir:
you put it well.
Will:
and what is hatred?
Shamir:
this is something I never experienced.
Will:
but so many people smear you?
Shamir:
I think they have practical reasons. I do not
believe they do it out of hatred. We
tend to judge people by our own measure; if
one is mercantile, he believes that others
are mercantile. That is what Talmud says: Posel
bemumo posel. Provided I never experience
hatred, it is difficult for me to believe
that others experience hatred to me.
Will:
Can one be provoked to hatred? Youve
seen settlers in the West Bank doing awful
things
Shamir:
One can be annoyed, but hatred is a very
strong emotion, and I never felt it.
Will:
You compared the IDF soldiers with Nazis.
Shamir:
Not out of hatred; not even out of anger,
because if one writes angrily, people will
not read it. I do not write angrily because
it is counterproductive. Anger is a very rare
feeling I would indulge myself in for this
reason.
Will:
Ive been to the West Bank and I
interviewed some murderous settlers. Do you
think Jews have a reservoir for hatred?
Shamir:
People can be trained to hate, by speaking
endlessly of your suffering, by repeating
forever how you and your relatives were
mistreated.
Will:
When I was there [in the West Bank] I
saw the settlers are very hostile to
Palestinians.
Shamir:
Yes, this is very silly. You know my mother
is a settler. Very ideological, she can speak
forever about how awful is everybody to them.
I tried many times to convince her. They
should try to live together in peace with
their neighbours.
Will:
it must be hard for her to read your stuff,
as she is a settler
Shamir:
yes she does not like it.
Will:
my mother does not like what I write
Shamir:
We are not obliged to write in a way to
please our mothers. The Japanese say the bond
between a child and parent is a one
generation bond; the bond of husband and wife
is two generations bond; the bond of master
and disciple survives three generations. It
is reasonable for we choose our spouses and
even more so we choose and persevere with
choosing our masters, but we do not choose
our mothers.
Will:
How did you choose your wife?
Shamir:
I was married twice, and both times I
realised immediately from the first sight
that is what I want.
Will:
Where did you meet your current wife?
Shamir:
In Eilat.
Will:
Is she an Israeli?
Shamir:
Yes. That was almost twenty years ago. I was
married to my first wife for fifteen years
since I was thirty.
Will:
What is happiness?
Shamir:
negatively speaking, it is the absence of
anxiety. Happiness is something you
experience after a good church service. Peace
of mind.
Will:
Are you happy now?
Shamir:
Very often
Will:
And right now?
Shamir:
That would be very odd! Happiness is a
sublime moment; it is not something we should
wish for twenty hours a day. Angels are
always happy. Read Anatole France, he wrote a
lot about angels, all his books delightful.
Will:
If you could be a supernatural being what
would you be?
Shamir:
Bodhisattva; that is one who declined to
become a Buddha in order to remain on earth
and help other people to reach enlightenment.
A man is given a chance to become a Buddha,
to leave this life of vanity, but Bodhisattva
refuses because he feels that there are
things to be done here. I do not say I am, I
say that is what Id like to be. One
should help people to come to life.
44:30
Here the interview becomes more controversial
and tense
Will:
You said in interview to Mohammed Omer that
anti-Semitism is an article of Jewish faith;
Jews believe that Jews and Gentiles must hate
each other. Can you elaborate?
Shamir:
How do the Jews explain hatred of Gentiles?
By their envy. They say that everybody is
envious of Jews, and for this reason they
hate. It is an article of Jewish faith that
everybody should be envious of Jews because
Jews are close to God. I hardly ever met a
person who would be envious of Jews. That is
why I do not believe in existence of anti-Semitism.
Ive met people who were described as
anti-Semites; some of them would hate the
concept, the idea of Jews but hardly anybody
would hate Jews as persons.
Will:
Do you think Hitler hated Jews, or Jews hated
Hitler?
Shamir:
Hitler perceived the Jews as an idea opposing
the Aryan idea. He followed the concepts of
Weininger; Otto Weininger, an Austrian Jew
from Vienna, an elder contemporary of Hitler,
a young man who committed suicide. Hitler
followed his idea of paradigmatic struggling
figures of Jew and Aryan.
Will:
People label you as anti-Semite, and you said
that if one is not called anti-Semite,
something must be wrong.
Shamir:
Sometimes I speak in paradoxes so the people
would pay attention. One should make people
listen to you. The meaning is: if you are
never called an anti-Semite it means you
never spoke against some awful things, for
instance against Bernie Madoff, because if
you would, you would be called
antisemite. Anyway this
accusation does not mean much for Jews;
youve been to Israel, you know people
call each other antisemite easily.
Will:
So anti-Semite is an empty word?
Shamir:
Yes, for us in Israel it is.
Will:
If somebody would tell you I hate Jews
and I wish that Hitler killed all of
them, what would you say?
Shamir:
Ive heard it more than once from
Sephardi Jews in Israel; they say that when
they meet an Ashkenazi Jew sometimes. I never
felt strong about that. I understand they
feel mistreated by Ashkenazi Jews, so they
say: Pity you did not burn in
Auschwitz.
Will:
What an awful thing to say!
Shamir:
One understands that a person speaks
emotionally because he is upset.
Will:
Dont you think people should be held
accountable for what they say?
Shamir:
People do say things
we do not know
whether they mean what they say.
Will:
What would you say to a person who says:
Israel, its too bad that your family
did not die?
Shamir:
Id reply: thats your bad luck.
Will:
Wont you be hurt?
Shamir:
Not really. I experienced these things many
times, perhaps 5 or 10 times, and I did not
even felt annoyed.
Will:
You say Auschwitz, but by your definition
Auschwitz was a Red Cross internment camp? [This
is one of the accusations levelled at Shamir
by the holocaust expert Davis whose expertise
was paid for by John Sweeney of the BBC show
Panorama. The comment is based on
Shamirs critique of his good friend
Gilad Atzmons remark
on why the allies did not bomb
Auschwitz. Shamir simply said
that Auschwitz was considered an internment
camp attended by the Red Cross
and that is why it was not bombed]
Shamir:
Oh no
Will:
So what is your definition of Auschwitz?
Shamir:
I have absolutely no interest in that. And no
definition of my own. Ive said
something entirely different: that Auschwitz
was perceived as internment camp.
Will:
Perceived by whom?
Shamir:
By everybody: by Jews in Palestine, by the
allies, by the Russians, by the Americans.
When the first rumours of mass annihilation
came to Palestine they were strongly refuted
by the Jewish authorities. They wrote in
newspapers: life is bad as it is, war is bad
as it is, and some people bring such horrible
stories
The Jewish authorities were
strongly against this sort of rumour. Surely
Auschwitz was perceived as a deportation camp,
not a resort, quite an awful place to be sure.
Concentration camp was used
before, by the Brits in Anglo-Boer War in the
beginning of 20th century; there
the expression was minted.
Will:
But Auschwitz as a place for extermination of
Jews?
Shamir:
This idea came to being only after the war.
Will:
So it was just a rumour?
Shamir:
No, I did not say that at all. What I said is
when the rumours came etc.
Ill make myself clear. I am not all
that much interested in what happened in
reality. I am interested in perceptions. What
I am dealing with is perceptions. So the
perception [of Auschwitz] during the
war was of a quite awful deportation camp,
where people were kept, forced to hard labour.
Only after the war a different perception was
formed: that of mass annihilation, mass
murder. But is not a universal, or even a
known perception during the war.
Will:
So it is not a fact that there was mass
annihilation?
Shamir:
I did not say that, and I did not intend to
say that; what I say is something different,
about the perceptions.
Will:
But which perception is true?
Shamir:
I am not interested in this question; it is
outside of my sphere of interests.
Will:
So it does not matter for you?
Shamir:
There are so many debates of this sort: how
many Armenians were killed and when and where,
or how many Ukrainians were killed by
Holodomor, I am not interested in this sort
of stuff.
Will
[persists]: But can you comment at all
whether these things happened?
Shamir:
I have no knowledge about it at all. Unless
one wants to just repeat what others say one
should learn the subject and I am not
interested. I am not interested because I
reject the idea. Why people speak of that:
because they think it is important. That it
has salvific value of it; that it brings geula,
salvation. But I do not think so. Death does
not bring salvation. For this reason I am not
possibly interested.
Will:
You said you should reject the story of
Holocaust [Will is probably referring to
an article
in which I say: As for the
accusation of Holocaust denial,
my family lost too many of its sons and
daughters for me to deny the facts of Jewish
tragedy, but I do deny its religious salvific
significance implied in the very term
Holocaust; I do deny its
metaphysical uniqueness, I do deny the morbid
cult of Holocaust and I think every God-fearing
man, a Jew, a Christian or a Muslim should
reject it as Abraham rejected and smashed
idols. I deny that it is good to remember or
immortalize such traumatic events, and I
wrote many articles against modern obsession
with massacres, be it Jewish holocaust of
1940s, Armenian massacre of 1915, Ukrainian
holodomor, Polish Katyn, Khmer
Rouge etc. Poles, Armenians, Ukrainians
understood me, so did Jews otherwise I
would be charged with the crime of factual
denial which is known to the Israeli law.]
Shamir:
That is right.
Will:
So you do not deny Holocaust?
Shamir:
Thats right, I do not.
Will:
You have a witty way of spelling Holocaust as
Hollow-Cost, in your book Masters
of Discourse.
Shamir:
I doubt I did; I do not remember it. This pun
is not high class.
Will:
One does not have to be high class all the
time.
Shamir:
Yes, but one should try not to go down too
far.
Will:
Do you consider yourself Siberian, Swedish,
or what?
Shamir:
This is a difficult question for me.
Will:
One of your names is Joran Jermas.
This is the name on your Swedish passport.
Where does it come from?
Shamir:
When I came under attack I was worried to
lose my freedom of movement, of being stopped
or bothered when checking into a hotel. So it
was a question of anonymity. If I were to
write under an assumed name from beginning,
it would be easier; but as I used my real
name, I had to assume another name for
anonymity.
Will:
So what is your real name?
Shamir:
Israel Shamir
Will:
So what about Israel Shamirer. People
say this is your birth name.
Shamir:
No idea where they get it. People provide me
with so many names!
Will:
Once you described Jews as virus in human
form.
Shamir:
I never did. This was an
invention of the Jerusalem Post. They
repeated it many times. People accused me of
all sort of things.
Will:
Smear jobs. Why do you think you are targeted?
Shamir:
I say complicated things; so it would be
easier if Id say something else. So
they misrepresent what I say. People are
probably unhappy with what I say, so they add
to make their case. Why cant they say
truth? I say and write enough things, but
they still misquote or invent.
Will:
So what are you trying to say?
Shamir:
I say a lot, thousands of words. Tens of
thousands.
Will:
What is your attitude to life?
Shamir:
I am very grateful to the Lord for what he
gave me; for bad times so Id appreciate
good times; and for good times because they
provided respite. Grateful for the world that
was created for me. In Talmud, a disciple of
Rabbi Akiba came to the Temple Mount and
blessed the Lord for creating multitudes of
people for him to worship with. He was a
madman; but this feeling we experience that
all was done for us: snow, throngs of people,
forest all that was created for me.
Such a feeling causes a lot of gratitude.
[afterwards
some small talk about skating, fishing,
New Jersey, until 1:14]
Will:
Do you know whom I met in Brooklyn? Ive
met Norm Finkelstein. You say he is one
of your best friends.
Shamir:
Oh no, an acquaintance.
Will:
He said not very nice things about you. He
said you are sleazy, that you invented your
personal history, and that is just a tip of
an iceberg.
Shamir:
Im not too disappointed. He is doing
very good job, Finkelstein does. He was very
disappointed with me. He used to say that the
Intifada has made one good thing: it brought
Israel Shamir forth. He was keen; he
thought I am doing wonderful things. But when
I did not stop where he would like me to stop,
he did not like it. He did not want me to
criticize Jewish culture, Jewish faith; that
Id embrace Christ that was very
foreign for him, being a secular man. I did
not promise him to do what he wants. Anyway I
am fond of him: he is doing a very good job.
I always stop people who criticize him.
It is not necessary that everybody will
follow my path, that they will reject what I
reject and accept what I accept. So I am very
positive about Norman Finkelstein. He is a
wonderful guy; he is very fast on the draw.
Very quick reaction. We appeared together in
front of a huge multitude, thousand people,
in the Columbia University in 2001. A lot of
people. I had difficulty to reply as fast as
he did. He impressed me. There was a Jewish
guy, dressed Jewish way, he asked me:
Are you Jewish? I must admit I
did not know what to answer. This is a
complicated question. Now I am surely not a
Jew
Will:
but your parents are Jewish, so you must to
be Jewish
Shamir:
My parents are Jewish, but I am not. It is a
question of choice, and I chose. But then I
was in the middle of transition, so I could
not answer neither Yes nor No. Norman
stepped it and answered wittily for me;
smoothing it over. So my memory of Norman is
very positive; he is smart, and his logic is
great.
[Shamir
explains a conjecture that the past is being
constantly re-written by our present-day
actions. If it is re-written, it can be re-done,
as well.]
Will:
How far along are we with the Protocols of
the Elders of Zion?
Shamir:
This is complicated matter. The Protocols
describe the world spiritually impoverished,
the world where Spirit is being destroyed.
The Jewish part there is not decisive, what
is decisive thats destruction of spirit.
And that is what many people feel that Spirit
is destroyed. This is the concept of Kali
Yuga. [Shamir spells and explains what it
is] This is the same as the Protocols.
One can imagine that there are some groups of
people (the Protocols say it is Jews) who
lead the way.
Will:
Is it for real?
Shamir:
The process of spiritual impoverishment is
real.
Will:
And are Jews behind it?
Shamir:
No, not as the paramount force. Though some
ideas of Jewish theology fit into it. We
should try to understand why people connect
Jews with the Kali Yuga process of decay.
The Jews believe that non-Jews have no direct
access to God. Only Jews have access to God,
and non-Jews should only approach God via
Jews. If a non-Jew has religion or learns the
Bible or tries to access God, it is called in
the Talmud a theft of Israels
legacy. This theft is a crime; so
from Jewish point of view, practically any
spiritual involvement of a Gentile is a crime.
Here it fits the Kali Yuga paradigm. However,
Kali Yuga decay or de-spiritualization of the
world is not a process controlled by humans (though
it is certainly influenced by them).
Will:
So what about the Elders of Zion?
Shamir:
Elders of Zion is a figure of speech.
Will:
So when you write about the Elders of Zion,
you mean just a figure of speech?
Shamir:
In my writings I did not go as far as I did
just now; I just described the concept and
summed up what others wrote. It is a
complicated subject; orally one can explain
it, but in writing: people cant ask
additional questions, so they end up
misunderstanding. I wrote much more simple
things; one long piece or two short pieces.
One, explaining how people saw it, notably
how Solzhenitsyn saw it; for he insightfully
wrote about the Elders. [Shamir spells out
Solzhenitsyn and explains who he was].
Solzhenitsyn saw the thought behind the
Protocols not as a domination drive but as a
process of spiritual destruction.
Will:
You write about American Goyim being
brainwashed by Jewish media lords. Can you
explain? Do you think I am brainwashed goy? [Actually
until this moment, I was certain that the
young man is of Jewish origin. Here he says
he is not. But it does not matter; what I say
to a Jew is what I say to a non-Jew].
Shamir:
How could I know about you personally? Do not
turn it into something so personal.
Will:
But what do they want to achieve by their
brainwashing of Goyim?
Shamir:
They want to induce you with thought that
Jews are special.
Will:
The Jews are not special? Are they like
everybody else, or worse?
Shamir:
Jews are not special; they are like everybody
else. They want to induce you with thought
that everything about Jews is special;
whether it is State of Israel, or Holocaust.
In my view, it is not so.
Will:
Do you want to say that Jews and Gentiles are
the same?
Shamir:
My view is a bit more complicated. I do
not think that Jews is a separate self-evident
category like zebra. You see a zebra; you
know it is zebra. With Jews it is not like
that. A Jew is one who willingly says:
I belong to this group. It is a
question of choice.
Will:
Is it good or bad to be a Jew?
Shamir:
I think it is a wrong choice. It would be
better for an American to be an American like
all his neighbors, instead of claiming that
he is special, a Jew. It is
better for people to be a part of the
community they live in. If they would have
separate culture, like for instance Assyrians
in Moscow; they live separately among
themselves. But Jews havent got this
separate culture anymore, not in Russia or in
the US.
Will:
What about the West Bank? The Jewish
settlements like one your mother lives in -
isnt it Jewish separate culture?
Shamir:
Not really. It is a separate colonial setup.
Technically they are Jewish, but actually
they are a colonial enterprise, and that is
why there are quite a lot of non-Jews in the
settlements, there are Russians, French. My
mother is frequently upset they celebrate
Christmas. The settlements could be moved to
Rhodesia or to Wild West of 19th
century. Some of the settlers go there for
economical advantages, because they want to
live in nice countryside, some are attracted
by the scenery, and some go for some crazy
reasons. I do not know the settlers all
that much; I saw them from outside, from
Palestinian point of view. They are possessed
by feeling they are so special, so they
establish no-go zones for natives around the
settlements.
Will:
Do you say you are not a Russian
representative for Wikileaks?
Shamir:
Thats right. I am not. I am a
journalist accredited with Wikileaks.
Will:
I spoke to Kristinn [Hraffson, the
Wikileaks spokesman] and he said that you
are their Russian representative.
Shamir:
So he said.
[AFTER
1:45 small talk].
Shamir:
Why did you decide to write about me?
Will:
You are one of the most important journalists
of our age. Are you a freedom fighter, a
crusader of truth?
Shamir:
No, just a writer.
Will:
Anyway you do not work for Jewish media lords.
Do you think I do work for Jewish media lords?
Shamir:
I do not know. You published too little to
know; you are still very young to know.
Will:
If one says to you the state of
Israel what do you think first?
Shamir:
Ill think of the country first, of its
landscape, of its people. The state of
Israel is a present political setup, it
was not the setup some 60 years ago, and it
may not last. It is transient feature.
Will:
You said the Jews will thrive under Islamic
state
Shamir:
I say: there may be Islamic state, and it
will not be tragedy, but it is not that I am
a supporter of such a solution. In Israel, we
have SHAS party, the party of religious
Oriental Jews. This party is very similar to
Hamas; I think they can become affiliated to
each other if and when there will be
one man one vote system in the land.
Then Hamas plus Shas could become a leading
force, but there are other forces -
secular, liberal, socialist. We should not
decide for people. But I do not exclude Hamas.
Will:
Does Israel seek world domination?
Shamir:
Israel as spiritual super-being wants to be
the Church of the world.
Will:
Israel should not exist, in your view?
Shamir:
The state of Israel should be transformed
into a state where everybody (people who
claim they are Jews and those who do not) has
equal rights.
Will:
It was reported that you asked for cables
about Jews. Why did you? Did you get any?
Shamir:
Yes, Ive a lot of cables concerning
Jews.
Will:
What do the cables say?
Shamir:
I intend to write about it; Ive had no
time yet.
Will:
One example?
Shamir:
There is a cable from Moscow saying there is
no anti-Semitism in Russia. [This cable
was published by Komsomolskaya Pravda and by
Counterpunch].
Will:
If I had the black hat and curls, you think
Id be able to walk the streets of
Moscow unmolested?
Shamir:
So many people do.
Will:
Give me another example?
Shamir:
Demands for restitution of Jewish property.
The US ambassadors in many countries fight
for it.
Will:
Is it right?
Shamir:
It is too late, and it will cause too much
trouble. Likewise, regarding restitution of
Palestinian property; in some cases it can be
done, but not totally.
Will:
What is the first word that comes to mind
when you hear the word Jews?
Shamir:
Not again. I am very tired
of hearing this word.
Edited
by Paul Bennett