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HAVE DU WILL TRAVEL
February 28, 2006 7:13 PM
About This Feature...
By W. Leon Smith
EDITOR-IN-CHIEF
When The Iconoclast learned of a study conducted by
Chris Busby and Saoirse Morgan that suggests that
depleted uranium radiation had traveled from Iraq to
Great Britain during shock and awe, we knew
it was time to more fully explore the implications.
We decided to lay it all on the table, as
best we could by interviewing noted scientists and people
in the know about radiation, those who have become
medical casualties, those who have gone through the
military system, and those who possess an upper tier
knowledge of radiation in general.
This is clear: the day that depleted uranium was
introduced into the arsenal of doom was quite literally
the day the earth stood still, with scientists worldwide
uniting to voice concern that genocide had found a home
on our planet. At the other extreme, militarists hailed
the nuclear substance as their newest advantage in
maximizing destruction. It became a trump card with the
ability to destroy the masses, even those yet unborn.
On the battlefield, DU has been hailed as the best,
and what country does not want its soldiers to be given
the best of tools in a time of war? Yet the bloody
afterglow of radiation and its dire consequences for
civilization have caused others to describe DU as
death unlimited.
We were told by the U.S. military in Iraq that there
is no longer a need for depleted uranium munitions there
and that, indeed, the current deployment is not using DU.
However, this past week it was announced that the Army
has placed a $38 million order for new DU munitions,
extending the original contract for fiscal year 2006 up
to $77 million.
DU is a controversial subject.
The Iconoclast attempted to get some answers.
We were pleased that some individuals were forthcoming
when we attempted to interview them and we were
disappointed at others who broke promises to call us back
after they learned the subject matter was depleted
uranium.
Although the quantity of text in this report tends to
weigh heavier for individuals opposed to the use of
depleted uranium, the Iconoclast spent considerable time
attempting to obtain Q&A viewpoints that might be on
the other side of the argument. It was in this venue that
promised phone calls were not returned and our reporters
got multiple run-arounds in reaching the top
brass.
Nevertheless, The Iconoclast has produced this special
feature which provides our readers a chance to listen in
on some of the conversations and draw their own
conclusions.
Among those interviewed, in the order they appear in
this feature, were:
Chris Busby, author of the study: Did the
use of Uranium weapons in Gulf War 2 result in
contamination of Europe?
Leuren Moret, geological scientist and
international radiation expert.
Dr. Ernest J. Sternglass, Emeritus Professor of
Radiological Physics in the Department of Radiology,
University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine.
Dr. Rosalie Bertell, PhD, GNSH, President of
the International Institute of Concern for Public Health
(IICPH), and Editor in Chief of International
Perspectives in Public Health.
Major Doug Rokke, Ph.D. (retired), former
director of the U.S. Army Depleted Uranium Project,
Vietnam and Gulf War Veteran.
Major Denise Nichols (retired), Gulf War
Veteran and retired U.S. Air Force Reserve Major,Vice
Chairman of the National Vietnam Veteran and Gulf War
Veterans Coalition.
Ann Ham, Public Affairs, U.S. Army Center for
Health Promotion and Preventive Medicine.
Captain William Roberts, Multi-National Forces
Iraq Spokesman.
Tim Hix, Vietnam Veteran exposed to Agent
Orange, dying of cancer.
Karl Schwarz, presidential candidate, author,
technology company founder whose son served in Iraq.
We lead off with the news story about the study.
Dr. Chris
Busby, who obtained a Ph.D. in Chemical
Physics from the University of London, has served as the
scientific secretary of the European Committee on
Radiation Risk and director of the environmental
consultancy Green Audit
To my mind,
its a human rights issue.
Iconoclast Interview
With Chris Busby
By W. Leon Smith
EDITOR-IN-CHIEF
ICONOCLAST: What impact do you think
the report will have on the United States?
BUSBY: I think the most important
thing is that it makes clear that the use of depleted
uranium involves indiscriminate effects on civilians. And
so it takes it away from being the weapon of legitimate
use in a military situation and puts it in the same
category as weapons like nerve gas that affect large
populations. So that, to my mind, would make it illegal
under the considerations of the Geneva Convention.
ICONOCLAST: The London Times did an
article last Sunday and the Ministry of Defense said that
it is unfeasible that depleted uranium could have
traveled so far.
BUSBY: The point is that material from
Chernobyl which is 1,800 miles to the east of Great
Britain traveled to Great Britain and contaminated Wales,
Scotland, and various parts of the United Kingdom. And
they might well have said that it was equally unfeasible
for it to travel that distance in the opposite direction
to the general flow of the wind, but we have examined
computer models of wind directions over the period of the
Gulf War and its quite clear the material from Iraq
could have come through the United Kingdom because of the
particular types of depressions and anticyclone systems
that were there. The American NOAH website has a computer
program that enables you to model the origin of air
masses that coordinate on the globe and we use the NOAH
system to back track material that was in the Aldermaston
field over the period and a lot of that material did come
from Iraq according to the calculations of this computer
program.
ICONOCLAST: Is monitoring still going
on on a frequent basis and are you following the models?
BUSBY: Uranium is still being
measured.
ICONOCLAST: How are the people of
London taking this news?
BUSBY: There are a lot of different
responses to our paper, from the Ministry of Defense and
from the Royal Society and from the Environment Agency
who are the people who deal with this in our country.
They all seem to be different responses. None of them
seem to be very sensible. The Environment Agency at one
point said they thought it was somebody digging the road
up. The Royal Society said that it might be from Iraq but
actually its probably natural uranium from a
sandstorm. The Ministy of Defense is just saying
its unfeasible for it to come all that distance.
So really its kind of knee-jerk
denial, for, because as far as the MoD is concerned, it
makes quite a big difference to the ethical basis of
their use of uranium as a weapon.
ICONOCLAST: If they say its from
other local environmental sources, such as a p ower
station, wouldlnt that have alerted authorities to
be on the lookout.
BUSBY: The problem with the argument
about the power station is that weve looked at the
data from 2000 to 2004, and theres data every two
weeks. In that whole period from 2000 to 2004,
theres only one enormous increase in radiation, in
uranium, and thats during the time of the Iraq war.
It would be quite extraordinary that the power station
happened to produce these releases just at the same time
as the war occurred, and, secondly, there arent
many power stations. The nearest nuclear power station is
at Sellafield and the wind was blowing north at the time.
It was blowing from the south so anything that would have
come out of there would have gone north. It wouldnt
have gone to Reading which is about 600 miles southeast
of the power station.
ICONOCLAST: What do you think the
result of this report will be. Do you think it will get
peoples attention?
BUSBY: I think it will have tremendous
impact. At the moment, what happens is that theyre
just going to go off and think about it and try to bury
it. Theres a legal case in this country at the
moment relating to some activists who damaged a B-52
bomber that was carrying depleted uranium to Iraq.
Itll certainly be used in this court case.
Theyll argue that the U.S. was using weapons of
indiscriminate effect. I hesitate to say mass
destruction, because its not quite in that
category, but certainly its a very toxic substance
that can cause genetic damage and congenital
malformations and cancer. And even if its a very
small risk of all of these things, and this is what they
argue, if you are contaminating people in the United
Kingdom, then youre clearly contaminating people in
Turkey and Greece and Italy and France a hugh
swathe of Southern Europe, and so the population that has
been contaminated is extremely large. So you are likely
to have had some effect.
And in any case, its a human
rights issue. People dont actually want to inhale
uranium, strange as it may seem.
ICONOCLAST: Do you think that the
health of a good number of Londoners has been effected by
this?
BUSBY: Not just Londoners, it would be
people over the whole of Southern Europe. And the answer
is that I dont know. We will certainly look, and
the first place that we will be looking will be in infant
mortality, congenital malformations.
ICONOCLAST: Do you think that there
will be an uprising against DU?
BUSBY: Theres already an
uprising against DU. Everybody thinks that DU should be
an illegal weapon. Everybody. I dont know anybody,
except the military who say that its a
valuable weapon in tank warfare. I cant think of
anybody who thinks that the use of a radioactive weapon
like that is justified under any circumstances.
I mean, after all, the military says,
Oh, we need this weapon because if enables us to
win wars. Well fair enough! But you might as well
use nerve gas, or biological weapons. The same argument
applies.
ICONOCLAST: Here in the United States,
very few people are aware of what DU is. It doesnt
mean anything to them. So what do you think we need to do
in the United States?
BUSBY: You people in the media need to
make it more clear that the United States is the major
user of this weapon and that it should be banned, because
its a very serious, and what goes around comes
around. You can be sure that if it has come to the United
Kingdom, its certainly gone to America.
ICONOCLAST: Do you think your paper
will open the eyes of many people in the government in
Europe?
BUSBY: I think so. I think it will
have a big impact. It might not have quite sunk into them
yet, but over a period of time they will have to accept
that this is the first clear evidence that this stuff is
capable of traveling such large distances, and therefore
it is capable of contaminating huge populations.
ICONOCLAST: Scientists have been
saying that DU travels and that it is a global problem.
Can they look at your study as being proof?
BUSBY: A lot of people have theorized
that it travels long distances, because these particles
are very small and they can be kept in the atmosphere, in
motion and by electro-static effects and so on. There was
always the fear that this was the case, and the military
has argued that this was not true. Ive been in
Kosovo where I measured these particles, but this is the
first really strong evidence that they can travel long
distances, and irony is that the evidence has actually
come deployed by the military themselves around the
atomic weapons establishment.
To my mind, its a human rights
issue. Originally, it was an issue relating to whether or
not it should be used in Iraq and if the population of
Iraq is being contaminated and possible the Gulf War
veterans being contaminated, but now we are seeing that
everybody is being contaminated. We are all Gulf War
veterans.
Leuren
Moret, of Berkeley, Calif., is an
independent scientist who works on radiation and public
health issues with communities around the world. She
earned her B.S. in Geology at U.C. Davis in 1968, and her
M.A. in Near Eastern Studies from U.C. Berkeley in 1978.
Moret is a geoscientist who became a whistleblower in
1991 at the Livermore Nuclear Weapons Lab after
witnessing fraud on the Yucca Mountain Project. She now
dedicates her life to revealing and understanding the
actual health effects of radiation exposure. She has
worked extensively on the impact of radiation on public
health from nuclear power plants and atmospheric testing
and how radiation moves through the environment.
Moret works with the Radiation and Public Health Project,
a group of independent scientists and has written a
scientific report on depleted uranium for the United
Nations subcommission investigating the illegality of
depleted uranium munitions. She has been trained on
radiation issues by a former Manhattan Project Scientist
and retired insider at the Livermore Lab who is an expert
on radioactive fallout and rainout. Together with Dr.
Hari Sharma, they have studied high levels of depleted
uranium measured in the tissue samples of 70 residents of
Basra, Iraq, who died after the Gulf War from internal
exposure to depleted uranium.
She wrote the forword to Akira Tashiros
award-winning Discounted Casualties: The Human Cost
of Depleted Uranium, and appears in the recently
released DVD Beyond Treason that was produced
by Power Hour Productions
<http://www.beyondtreason.com/>, an 89-minute film
that presents comprehensive documentation from United
States Government archives of a massive cover-up,
including military and civilian experimentation, dating
back over 60 years.
Depleted uranium
is the trojan horse of nuclear war.
Iconoclast Interview
With Leuren Moret
By W. Leon Smith
EDITOR-IN-CHIEF
ICONOCLAST: What do you think of the
Busby report? Do you think its pretty accurate?
MORET: Oh, I think its totally
accurate. Those numbers are from the British government.
There is absolutely no doubt at all that those numbers
are completely accurate. That facility has been there for
years. It was established out of concern for the public
to monitor the nuclear powerplant emissions and the
nuclear weapons facility emissions in Britain. They have
the best equipment. They have the best technicians. They
have the best scientists doing all of that monitoring,
whose numbers have to be completely correct. If anything,
they would be lower than the actual amounts that they
were measuring. They would never make them higher.
ICONOCLAST: How would you describe
what happened?
MORET: What happened is Dr. Busby is
on a British government committee and he is an official
scientific advisor on low level radiation to the British
government. He also works with the European Parliament
and they asked him to produce an independent report on
low level radiation for the European Parliament. He
produced something with 45 other scientists called the
ECRR Report. It came out in January of 2003. I took it
all over the Eastern U.S. and was introducing it and
talking to it before they even had a press conference and
released it in Britain. He went to Bosnia and Kosovo and
collected depleted uranium samples and weve all
been very concerned about the transport of these tiny
particles all over the world. I am really the one who
brought this issue out into the open. It was perfectly
reasonable and justified for him to ask the Aldermaston
facility for those numbers.
Theyd always given them to him
before, but when he asked them two years ago, out of
concern about the transport of these materials, they
refused to give them to him. I asked him why and he said
that. Three years ago, Halliburton took over that
facility. I asked, did Halliburton take over a British
government air monitoring facility and he said yes.
Thats very interesting and theyre the ones
who wouldnt give you the numbers and he said yes.
Last Jan.1, in 2005, the Freedom of Information Act went
into law and was effective on that day and thats
the day he filed a Freedom of Information Act request to
get the numbers. They still refused to give them to him
and so there was a long delay. Finally, Halliburton gave
him the numbers, but they wouldnt give him any of
the 2003 numbers for the Iraq war. When I saw how high
that number was, 1,700, I understood exactly why they had
taken the facility over three years before. It was too
high.
ICONOCLAST: What should the numbers
be?
MORET: Less than 30. We should only be
measuring natural uranium in the air that is coming out
of mineral sources and natural sources. There already is
contanimation from nuclear weapons testing and even lower
orbital space is contaminated with uranium and uranium
decay products. I discovered a paper on it in the Journal
of Environmental Radioactivity, which was written in
2002. That is a very, very small amount. What
theyre measuring now are these horrendous peaks
that exactly correlate with the battlefield events in
Iraq and Kosovo and Bosnia and Afganastan. And there is
even a piece during a Chechnya conflict in 98 and
99, which indicates the Russians are using it, too,
in Chechnya.
ICONOCLAST: If you have shock and awe
going on in Iraq and the readings are being monitored in
the UK, is it like a sweep of these going through there
and then you have your spikes and then it goes back down,
is that in the air?
MORET: Yes. This is just pollution to
have a point source, a battlefield or whatever that is
releasing this into the air. On those filters in Britain,
there were also sand and dust particles that were 1 to 5
microns that also came from the Middle East. These are
well known all over Europe because sand and dust storms
that originate in the Middle East and Central Asia and
especially North Africa have been identified for
centuries in Europe.
They were called blood rains because
in the hot desert conditions, iron oxide coats the grains
of sand and dust and when theyre transported North
over Europe and theyre rained out, those iron
oxides stain the rain kind of the color of a weak wine
and they were a bad omen. Boy, they sure are a bad omen
now, because theyre also transporting radioactive
isotopes. Now, that sand and dust, we already know where
thats coming from, were on the filters with the
much smaller particles of depleted uranium, which the
average particle size for atmospheric test is a tenth of
a micron. These DU particles form at really high
temperatures under battlefield conditions and
theyre very tiny. Theyre called
nanoparticles.
ICONOCLAST: Do they land on the
ground?
MORET: No. These are so small that the
movement in the air currents and the big convection cells
which are weather fronts and stuff, keep them suspended.
They dont settle out. They have to be rained out or
snowed out or permanently suspended.
ICONOCLAST: If this is in the air in
the UK and it rains, do they become part of the soil?
MORET: Yes. They rain on buildings and
rooftops and on trees and leaves and on people. Because
theyre wet, they stick to whatever they land on and
it is almost impossible to remove it.
ICONOCLAST: They radiate when
theyre there?
MORET: Yes. So, its causing an
epidemic of melanoma, globally. That means skin cancer,
especially in children. There are increases in infant
mortality now being reported in the New York Times a
couple of years ago. I saw an article in January of 2003,
Mysterious Increases in Infant Mortality in 20 Regions of
Europe. Its a global disaster. Theres a frog
die-off going on. Frogs are dying off all over the world.
The worst thing is the global increases in diabetes.
Diabetes is an immediate response just within months to
these depleted uranium battles. We can see especially
huge increases in the Gulf states which are Texas,
Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, and then on up the east
coast.
ICONOCLAST: How do you know
theyre attributed to DU?
MORET: Because the increases correlate
each year with the battles. When there arent
battles or that stuff isnt transported sufficiently
across the Atlantic, then there is not much of an
increase. It drops off or stabilizes.
ICONOCLAST: The reason the Gulf states
are affected more is because of the Trade Winds?
MORET: Yes. These are not hurricanes.
These are huge sand and dust storms that are a million
square miles in size.
ICONOCLAST: Are the affects permanent
or if they quit using this type of ammunition, would it
reverse.
MORET: Well, its like
atmospheric testing contamination of radioactive
pollution of the atmosphere. As its rained out and
snowed out, its deposited in the environment and it
sticks to any surface where it lands. Its removed
from the atmosphere. The most harmful pathway of exposure
is inhalation. If it is sticking to things, at least
its not in the air and eventually its going
to end up in the ocean. But that will be a long, long
time.
ICONOCLAST: One thing that the Times
article suggested was that radiation experts also said
that other environmental sources were more likely to
blame. What would they be referring to?
MORET: This is typical spin.
Theyve been saying this for years and they say,
well, its in your backyard. Its in the soil.
Thats true, but the concentration of uranium that
occurs throughout the earth is like one part per two and
a half million. So, its a very low concentration
and a lot of it is in the ocean. Its not getting
these huge concentrations in Britain on air filters at
atomic monitoring facilities because its from a
natural source. This is airborne. The air monitoring
station isnt just measuring at one site. They had
over five sites where they were measuring these numbers
and they were actually higher away from the actual
facility where the emissions are coming out. If it was
from that facility, the numbers would have been the
highest at the facility because it would have been the
point source. The fact that youre finding Middle
Eastern dust and sand on the filters with the DU
indicates that it is coming from the Middle East.
ICONOCLAST: You can tell what kind of
sand it is by some kind of test?
MORET: Oh sure. All the nuclear
facilities in every country in Europe Greece and
Romania and Italy they monitor every single day,
those sand and dust storms from whatever is coming from
whatever direction. Theyve always done that. During
the battle of Kosovo and Bosnia, the European Parliament
requested that all those countries do air monitoring of
radioactive pollution and of chemical pollution coming
from the NATO invasion of Yugoslavia. These were very
extensive reports and are available from the EU. I
dont think there is any place its more
monitored than Europe because they just have the
infrastructure and the facilities and they know
everything.
ICONOCLAST: The spikes that occurred,
when they occurred, were an oddity? You wouldnt
have spikes normally.
MORET: There has to be a point first,
to have such high levels. The highs and lows from the
weather conditions and the direction of the wind currents
is consistent with these high levels in Britain.
ICONOCLAST: It says in this article
that on two occasions, levels exceeded this ratio in
which the Environmental Agency must be informed so within
safety limits.
MORET: They say that, but none of it
is safe. A report issued by the National Academy of
Sciences came out in July. Its the seventh report
over the last 30 or 40 years, which is an official
scientific academy report in the United States and it
stated very clearly there is no safe level of radiation
exposure.
ICONOCLAST: They also say in this
article that other experts says local environmental
sources, such as a power station, were more likely at
fault. What would a power station be?
MORET: A nuclear power plant.
ICONOCLAST: Wouldnt they have
had some kind of major. . .
MORET: It would have had to be a
Chernobyl event in Britain, which they couldnt hide
because of their countrys, you know, I told you
they are all monitoring, they would have been alarmed. It
would have had to been a huge accident.
ICONOCLAST: So, that doesnt hold
any water.
MORET: No. By the way, the abundance
of uranium in the earths crust is 2.4 parts per
million. Sea water is actually smaller. It has a very low
concentration. What they always say is that its in
the soil all over your yard and you can dig around and
its there. Or, its coming from another source.
Its coming from a nuclear power plant nearby. It
just cant be true because the air currents were
coming directly from the Middle East and they
werent being transported from other power plants or
sources in Britain.
Dr. Busby, because hes an expert
on radiation and this kind of stuff, because of how I
told you this is transported all over the world,
its completely mixed in the global atmosphere in
one year, no matter where they used it. Its just
mixed that quickly. Its amazing. In the report that
was produced after the first Gulf War, it was from all
the oil well fires and all the munitions and all the
battlefields. That was a thick, black cloud that covered
the area for a whole year after Gulf War I. That city had
material that was deposited globally in the ice record in
tropical glaciers, on the Antarctic Ice Sheet, in Hawaii,
in the Himalayas, in the Alps, and a year later, it was
deposited in the ice record all over the world. What
happens is that the equator is very warm and the poles
are very cold and this temperature gradient caused a
mixing in the atmosphere of hot and cold air. They need
to all be the same temperature. That causes of this
violent mixing and the new particles are part of all of
that. They are just globally mixed in one year.
ICONOCLAST: What happens if the levels
get real high in the waters and fish end up with . . .
MORET: They dont need to be
high. Low level radiation is devestating. Its a
thousand times more harmful, according to Busbys
European Committee on radiation risk report.
The Hiroshima and Nagasaki studies
only considered cancer and birth defects as legitimate
diseases caused by radiation exposure. They only
considered the exposure of the victims to neutrons and
gamma rays, which were external. They said there was no
internal contamination. We know that thats not
true. Everybody in Japan was contaminated by the bombs.
It wasnt until Cherynobyl when they could actually
measure the radiation and fields and dose. Then they
looked at each chromosome and determined that the gamuts
were 1,000 times higher than what that ICRP model would
have predicted. Then they also counted the genetic
mutation in wheat and in mice. They knew what the exact
dose was and they saturated from the ICRP model how many
defects there should be in the DNA and they counted a
dozen times higher or a dozen times more than had been
predicted.
We know the ICRP model is faulty. It
cant be used at all for internal exposure. It
wasnt done correctly, anyway. It was perfectly
reasonable and legitimate for Dr. Busby to request those
air monitoring numbers from Aldermaston, because we know
that thats the dust from the Middle East. We know
it ends up in Europe and Britain. Ive been to
England in the morning and in the evening. I went out in
the street, and there was this red sand all over cars and
all over windshields and in the streets. That was from
North Africa.
ICONOCLAST: Should the people in
Britain be alarmed?
MORET: Yes! But there is nothing they
can do. We have to stop these weapons. Theyre
altering atmospheric testing. The equilavent of 40
thousand Hiroshima bombs have been released into the
atmosphere. The amount of radiation included with the
emissions from the nuclear power plants have created,
according to Dr. Roseleaf herself, the death and
mutilation and diseases in 1.3 billion people. Its
had a global effect. What theyve released since
1991 is the equalivent of at least 400,000 Nagasaki
bombs. Thats 10 times more than during atmospheric
testing. We are having a very serious public health
threat globally. You can see it in the infant mortality
increases. They started down as soon as they stopped
testing in 1963. They kept going down until these darn
unanium wars started in 1991. Were having a global
frog die-out. Theyre living in the fresh water,
rain waters that is washing out. Were having a
decline in fisheries globally. Were just stripping
this beautiful planet of all these diverse forms of life.
ICONOCLAST: This absorption into the
atmosphere globally, there is no safe place?
MORET: There is no safe place. There
is no possible way to escape from it.
ICONOCLAST: Are there uranium
detectors that people can buy?
MORET: Yes. Youre going to have
much higher readings along the Gulf Coast region, right
where you are. I looked at the diabetes rates in those
states and Texas really got slammed. It goes up the East
Coast. All of the nuclear power plants in the U.S. are on
the East Coast. People are being exposed to various
products from the nuclear power plants emission, but
theyre getting exposed to DU, too, the decay
products. What is the most harmful effect from both
exposures, surprisingly enough, is particulate from the
nanoparticle. That is a nonspecific catalyst. Each one of
them has an enzyme effect. Catalytic or enzyme poisons
are biologically the most damaging of all. Thats
why the soldiers and people who were exposed are sick
within 24 to 48 hours. Its that catalytical effect.
ICONOCLAST: If you live close to a
power plant theres a chance . . .
MORET: Youre absolutely being
internally exposed 24 hours a day. Every breath that you
take. A 100 mile radius is where you get the highest
exposure. We collected chicken eggshells and baby teeth
from people living around the Indian Point Reactor and
the levels in the chicken eggshells was the same as in
the baby teeth. Its just completely poisioning the
air, the soil, the food, the water, and blood. These tiny
particles go right through your skin. They go through
everything and a really good example of the horrible
effect is the World Trade Center disaster. All of the
huge numbers of metal and tiny particles, the highest
ever measured in the United States, in fact, I think
around the world, were measured in the month after the
Trade Center disaster.
ICONOCLAST: Is that because of fires
or explosions.
MORET: The fire. That building came
down and all this kinetic energy, you know all the energy
that it takes to build a building and carry all those
materials up, when that building collapses, that is
kinetic energy which is released and it created a very
hot pile which continued to burn for months.
ICONOCLAST: Did the EPA take action?
MORET: Well, the EPA scientists were
very alarmed about it and about the nanoparticle
pollution in the air, but they werent allowed to
say anything, because of the administrator who was a
coverup artist. She and her husband had very strong ties,
including personal investments in companies that were
related to the insurance companies in the World Trade
Center. The EPA scientists were not allowed to say
anything.
ICONOCLAST: So people breathed all
these particulates.
MORET: Yes.
ICONOCLAST: What do you think is the
significance of Busbys report, overall.
MORET: It concerns everything that
Ive been saying for five years. That this pollution
of depleted uranium particles are traveling. Theyre
being carried on air currents and theyre being
transported all over the world.
ICONOCLAST: The reports by the
military and the U.S. and Britain are wrong?
MORET: Well, the military job is to
kill people and to destroy things. Depleted uranium is a
very effective weapon. They are not responsible for
anything that happens after that point. So theyre
going to cover it up so that they can continue to use
weapons that kill lots of people and destroy things. The
U.S. government, the British government, the Australian
government and countries that have used DU are violating
international treaties. They are violating the Geneva and
the Hague conventions. Theyre violating the Geneva
1925 gas protocal that prohibits gas weapons that kill
indiscriminately. We are violating our own federal laws.
It meets the definition under U.S. federal code in two of
three categories. Its a weapon of mass destruction
under our own federal law. It violates U.S. military law.
What theyre really worried about is that they would
be financially responsible for these terrible weapons and
it would totally bankrupt any country. We can never clean
up the Middle East or Central Asia. We cant clean
up the atmosphere. They poisioned our world.
ICONOCLAST: What is the long-term
prognosis for Iraq?
MORET: Oh, Iraq, the former
Yugoslovia, and Afghanastan are completely uninhabitable
now. No one should be living there.
ICONOCLAST: Where do these people go?
MORET: Well, theyre just going
to slowly die. Their DNA is already destroyed.
ICONOCLAST: How long does a soldier
have to be in Iraq before he has health problems.
MORET: What Major Doug Rokke told me,
he was in charge of the depleated uranium cleanup team in
Iraq, he said we were sick within 24 to 48 hours. Many
soldiers have described that . . .
ICONOCLAST: What kind of sickness is
it? What are the symptoms?
MORET: The symptoms are all of a
sudden they started feeling sick and muscle and joint
pain and rashes. Just a general malaise and losing
control of their body functions. Some of them came back
in adult diapers after Gulf War I. The men have burning
semen and they internally contaminate their wives. Vanity
Fair magazines David Rose did a wonderful article.
A very indepth, very hard-hitting article, in the
December 2004 issue. Ive been to panels. Some of
them are so sick that their heads are down on their arms
all of the time except when they are talking. They have
chronic fatigue. Any surgery or wounds that they have
will not heal because their immune system is completely
damaged by the DU particles. One breath of air can give
you a fatal dose.
ICONOCLAST: If this is happening
through the Trade Winds coming up along the Texas coast,
how would people tell if theyve had exposure?
MORET: They cant tell. Suddenly,
people are getting diabetes. Infant mortality is
increasing. These are ways that they can tell or they can
notice, for instance, the frog die-off in the
environment. These are environmental indicators. There is
no way to clean it up and there is no way to avoid
exposure.
ICONOCLAST: There is no test you can
do?
MORET: Yes. You can get a urine test,
but you should have a geology lab measure the uranium in
the urine and then look at the isotopic ratio to see if
it has the signature of depleted uranium. It wont
be the same as on natural uranium. I dont know of
any uranium mines in Texas. It wouldnt be coming
from the environment.
ICONOCLAST: Is there anything else you
want to add?
MORET: Weve got over 12 or 14
depleted uranium bills in the state legislatures and we
did that because we couldnt get anywhere with the
Federal government. Its been a presidential coverup
under President George Herbert Walker Bush, under Clinton
who used it in Yugoslovia. It was under George Herbert
Walker Bush when it was used for the first time on the
battle field by the U.S. government in 1991 in the Iraq
war. George W. Bush is responsible for using it in
Afghanastan and Iraq. These three presidents are the
three biggest war criminals in the history of the entire
world. Theyve gotten away with it because
theyre spending hundreds of millions of dollars on
the coverup. As long as they can keep people studying it
and there is no definitive proof and stuff like that,
statements like that are coming out from established
scientists in the Pentagon, then the big lie continues.
We know by this horrific information published by Dr.
Busby that, indeed, this is an environmental issue. It is
a global issue and its all being transported all over the
world. The Aldermasten Report is the most important one
that has come out so far.
ICONOCLAST: What are the hopes of the
bills before the Legislature.
MORET: What I did was take the
Connecticut bill that got bogged down in the Conneticut
Legislature, requiring mandatory testing by the state of
returning soldiers who want it, to Louisiana in April of
2005. They had voted unanimously in the House and in
their Assembly and the governor signed it into law within
eight weeks of me giving it to them on April 19. That was
just astounding. I was really shocked. A week later, it
was attached to Congressman McDermotts depleted
uranium bill before Congress and, in fact, it was your
interview with Doug and me and Melissa Sterry in that
whole issue of the paper. I mean youre President
Bushs hometown newspaper in Crawford, and your
paper was attached as a supporting document to that bill.
So everybody in the Pentagon and in Congress read that,
not to mention the VA and probably the state department.
Your paper went all over the government. Thats very
important.
ICONOCLAST: But there are other states
that are following suit?
MORET: Yes. And now we have, actually,
the states have legal jurisdiction over the National
Guard so theyre able to pass laws like specifically
covering the National Guard. They cant do it for
the regular soldiers, they dont have legal
jurisdiction. What were doing is forcing the
Pentagon and the Federal Government to follow their own
laws and directives and orders to test soldiers; to train
them before theyre sent over there, soldiers
wholl be handling it, and then to give them medical
treatment when they come back and theyre sick.
Were forcing them to do that for National Guard and
then the states are making the government pay for it, the
federal government, because theyre violating their
own laws and mandates. Its getting a lot of local
media attention. Its getting activsts and citizens
all riled up about this issue and then its making
the other soldiers and veterans who are not getting this
treatment angry because theyre entitled to it too.
So were pushing states against Federal law.
ICONOCLAST: So about a third of the
states have moved forward on this.
MORET: We have it in the New York,
Vermont, Massachusetts, Legislature. Its going into
California and Oregon. Its in Washington, Hawaii
and I think Michigan or Minnesota. Louisiana has already
passed it. Connecticut has passed it into law. Were
really started a snowball thing.
ICONOCLAST: Where do you start the
ball rolling. Does someone contact the governor?
MORET: I think the most effective
thing is to find two Vietnam veterans. Theyve
already been through the Agent Orange poision and all the
lies of the government. Theyve all been thrown in
the trash can and filed lawsuits that were dismissed. The
Vietnam veterans are really the most dangerous group to
the federal government. Theyve been the most
effective. I gave it to two veterans in Louisiana and
they went into the Legislature and looked them in the eye
and said now, youre not going to turn down two
Vietnam veterans. Its impossible to do that. What
happened just last week in the Hawaii legislature is that
Rep. Ito, who was the chair of the Veterans Committee,
refused to introduce the depleted uranium bill into the
Legislature so Doug and I and other experts started
writing to the Legislaters and encouraging the citizens
to put more pressure on Ito. A veteran wrote a letter to
Ito that said were a group of 3,500 veterans that
have agreed to vote as a block and if you dont put
that into the Legislature, were going to vote you
out. Thats effective. You have to do something and
you feel better already. The hardest thing is to take
that first step and to do an action.
We need to remind people what Ghandi
said . . . Even a small lamp dispells the
darkness.
Depleted uranium is the trojan horse
of nuclear war. It keeps killing and there is no way to
turn it off and there is no way to clean it up. After
were all dead and wipe out our own species, the
earth will heal itself.
Ernest
Sternglass, Ph.D., is Director, and
Chief Technical Officer of the RPHP Baby Teeth Study.
In 1963, Dr. Sternglass was invited to testify before the
congressional Joint Committee on Atomic Energy, as to how
the exponential increase in strontium-90 in baby teeth
caused by bomb-test fallout was associated with increased
childhood leukemia. His research and testimony played a
role in President Kennedys decision to sign the
Partial Test Ban Treaty.
As Professor Emeritus of Radiological Physics at the
University of Pittsburgh Medical School, Dr. Sternglass
has written numerous articles on the health effects of
low-level radiation.
His 1981 book Secret Fallout: Low-level Radiation from
Hiroshima to Three Mile Island established him as a
pioneer in the study of the health effects of low-level
radiation.
What weve
done is to replace the fallout from bomb testing with the
so-called small permitted releases from nuclear
plants.
An Interview With Dr.
Ernest Sternglass
By W. Leon Smith
EDITOR-IN-CHIEF
ICONOCLAST: I thought maybe you would
be willing to discuss depleted uranium and its health
implications.
STERNGLASS: Ive been examining
all the latest findings that have been reported and the
evidence is just simply overwhelming that the DU
particles travel around the world and they are far more
toxic than anyone had suspected for uranium.
ICONOCLAST: Do you think the study is
legitimate?
STERNGLASS: The latest thing that has
happened in this field is that Dr. Chris Busby together
with another person prepared a paper that is called
Did The Use of Uranium Weapons in the Gulf War 2
Result in the Contamination of Europe? and he shows
the evidence from the measurements of the Atomic Weapons
Establishment in Britain and its just overwhelming.
What he finds is just remarkable.
It turns out that the British people
who develop atomic weapons have been monitoring activity
in the air for years and under freedom of information he
was able to get hold of the data they had stopped
publishing years ago in 1999. They kept measuring it and
essentially this is what they found. Compared to a period
of a few years during which these measurements were
averaged the article says that typically the levels were
the order of 100 units. Then during the three weeks
between the Gulf War events that took place on March 19,
the first strike of our airplanes against Bagdad, then on
March 20, the second round of air strikes took place, the
21st of March, heavy aerial attacks on many cities, on
April 14, the major fighting was declared over.
So he looked at these three weeks and
the number of stations that measured radioactivity in
Britain, and he found that instead of 100 units average
in the background use in the same place suddenly it rose
to 600 during those three weeks. They tested it in every
possible way. They even looked at the details of the
geographic and the meteorological data and he published
the charts for the Atlantic and Europe and the
meteorological office, and, low and behold, there is no
other way, and in fact they could show that air from
Africa in that direction moved all the way to Europe and
deposited some sand from the Sahara, so there was simply
no alternative to the use of battlefield uranium.
It has been clearly shown to allow
these fine particles that have less than a quarter of a
million diameter. They measured it and calculated in
three weeks how many of these particles would be taken in
by a person breathing normally and spending some time
outdoors and they calculated that 23 million tiny
particles of a quarter million diameter in the
concentration that they measure would reach the body and
go to the lungs and enter the lymphatic system and
produce all kinds of organ damage.
ICONOCLAST: What does that mean to the
average citizen of Great Britain? That they have a better
chance of getting cancer?
STERNGLASS: Not only cancer. I have
been particularly studying the recent rise of diabetes
that has taken place around the world. Ive looked
at the 50 states in the United States for which the CDC
has just recently published the detailed data by age
group, 18-44, 45-64, 65-74, 75+, plus the total for the
whole number, and the age adjusted rates for every state
between 1994 and 2004.
The overwhelming evidence is that, for
instance, in Alaska there was a huge rise, especially
sensitive in the 75+ age group, which went from a low of
5.8% of the population that age in 1997 to as high as
13.7% by the year 2003. There was a peak in between of
15.1 in 2002 and there are no nuclear plants anywhere
near Alaska.
A very comparable rise of the same
order of percentage rise especially for the total age
adjusted rate occurred in Japan. Evidence has been
published in China about Japan and China recently that
Japan has almost twice the rate of diabetes that we have
in our nation. Typically, the greatest rises in our case
have initially taken place in areas near large nuclear
facilities like in Tennessee and downwind to the
northeast in Kentucky and West Virginia. In fact, the
areas in the west which are relatively far from the
oceans on both sides, like Oklahoma, Wyoming, Colorado,
those states had relatively low rates of diabetes in the
early years of 1994. But then they rose and essentially
achieved pretty much the same levels as the states with
large nuclear facilities.
ICONOCLAST: How does radiation cause
diabetes?
STERNGLASS: There was an article in
January 2005 in Science, in which they found that what
was going on, and this is really amazing, is that they
find that obesity is also rising and no one knows quite
why. They find that there are genetic factors, mutations,
damage to the pancreas and to the islands of beta cells
that produce insulin that normally produce adequate
amounts of insulin. In the case of Type 1, they stop
producing insulin all together and in the case of Type 2,
they often dont supply enough.
Genes that control the production of
certain hormones are damaged and all of this is
explained. These biological mechanisms are now becoming
clear, but nobody knows what is triggering the whole
chain and thats exactly what is now available in
the article that appeared in Science, Volume 311 on Feb.
3, 2006, page 622-628. Its an article called
The Toxic Potential of Materials at the Nano
Level. It explains in detail how any kind of
material, it could be ordinary carbon or a metal that is
not radioactive, if these particles are small enough,
that is tinier than a micron, which is a millionth of a
meter, or one ten thousandths of a centimeter, if these
particles are that small, it turns out they are toxic in
themselves, whatever they are composed of.
Thats exactly whats
happening in the case of nanoparticles which are produced
when the uranium burns upon impact and melts steel and
the fine particles are so small, they act like a gas. So
what youre getting is a gas of uranium that gets
transported around the world and is now proven by these
latest measurements.
And so what were seeing is an
epidemic of all types of conditions that we did not
understand, that have been in continuous rise in this
country in the last 15 years, actually since the mid-80s.
A very consistent rise, especially in cancers that are
known to be produced by radioactive materials.
The most well-known of these is
thyroid cancer, and the incidence of thyroid cancer has
the most new cases, not mortality, because most people do
not die of thyroid cancer because it can be treated, but
the incidence of thyroid damage in general and in
particular thyroid cancer has been going up steadily and
this is again due to radioactive products.
We know that this is true now that
other cancers, especially pancreatic and breast cancer,
have been rising. The incidence of mortality has leveled
off in breast cancer and has come down slightly, that is
the total number of people who die of breast cancer has
been declining slightly because of the great improvement
of medical techniques of early detection, early
treatment, and successful treatment by chemicals and
surgical techniques that have been developed.
We have had no real understanding of
why diabetes has been rising so enormously and now it all
comes together. Its all happening at this very
moment, in fact.
Im in the process of writing a
paper that I will be presenting in Japan in the middle of
March. Im leaving for Japan on March 8 and
its just mind-blowing to what degree measurements
by the Weapons Establishment in England show that these
fine particles travel thousands of miles around the world
and, in fact, Leuren Moret has pictures that NASA
satellites took showing the sand storms going across the
Atlantic and all over the world so we have totally
underestimated the very serious nature of the use of
uranium as weapons.
ICONOCLAST: I know that the government
in Texas, for instance, have been promoting better diets
for students. They say junk food is the cause of obesity.
STERNGLASS: Its the combination
of all these factors. This is what happens a series of
articles in recent years have shown that one key reason
diabetes is produced is that in the centers in the brain
that control appetite and that receive signals from fatty
tissue, hormones are sent out, when either the brain
center is damaged or the production of chemicals that
signal that enough fat is accumulated so that there is no
need to eat more, when this is damaged then people simply
cannot stop eating and this happens particularly strongly
in the case of young people who live in areas where
theres a lot of milk that was shipped into inner
cities from somewhere with nuclear reactors nearby.
It happens in Washington D.C.,
Baltimore, New York City, all of which we see milk from
around the area, Three Mile Island, Peachbottom, and the
Virginia reactors and the ones in New Jersey because the
states, and we published a book that describes this in
detail in 1990 called Deadly Deceit, in which
my associates Dr. Jay Gould, who just recently passed
away and Ben Goldman, interviewed House officials in
different states, especially D.C., and the states around
this area and they said yes, we mix the milk from these
areas because there is a law that was passed way back
during the Roosevelt administration in the 1930s to
protect farmers whose milk just doesnt taste quite
good and it allows the federal government to help them by
buying the milk and making sure that the farmer receives
the full price and then they mix it with other milk and
ship it to other areas where it is consumed.
ICONOCLAST: So youre saying that
milk is contaminated with DU?
STERNGLASS: Often is it not only
contaminated with DU, but with the permitted releases of
nuclear plants, which you know they typically emit such
elements as cesium 137 and strontium 190, as well as fine
particles of uranium and plutonium, and these products
and other heavy elements that are produced in the
reaction in the reactor. These are tiny particles that
enter the environment, get into the milk, into the grass,
a cow concentrates some of them like radioactive iodine
and radioactive strontium, especially. The theory was
that by diluting it there would be too small a
concentration to see, but, unfortunately, the dose
response curve over the last 20-30 years, it has been
discovered, is not a straight line. In fact, the greatest
effect rises for tiny doses. It rises rapidly for the
first 50 hundred milligrams and then flattens out, and
this is called the logorhythmic dose response.
This diluted milk, or milk that has
quite a bit of radioactivity in it, was extrapolated and
was believed would be too small to make a significant
detectable difference. But it turns out, in fact, to be
very sensitive and, therefore, we find that in Washington
D.C. which has no cows of its own, it developed during
the recent years of nuclear reactors since the 1970s
essentially, when the large reactors began operating D.C.
began to have the highest infant mortality in the nation,
together with the highest number of children born below
normal weight. And this is moreso than in areas that have
a very large concentration of black people like
Mississippi, Louisiana, many of the states in the South.
And so the overwhelming evidence that
is coming together is that it is a combination of many
things that we did not fully understand. We did not
understand that the dose response is not a straight line,
but rises very rapidly for the tiny doses and curves down
and becomes flat. Thats why not everybody in Europe
died from the huge releases in Cherynobyl. We saw
children and infant mortality peak in the summer of 1986
from Cherynobyl. We published papers on this. We found
that wherever there were high levels measured by the EPA
by radioactive iodine, and radioactive strontium that
came from Cherynobyl in certain parts of the country, in
those areas, there was an increase in total mortality
over the previous years, and also mortality and
infectious diseases and infant mortality. That could not
have been explained except for the existence of this
superlinear dose response, which again, is something that
we had never seen.
With the number of ordinary x-rays,
for instance, there was a straight line relationship
between the number of x-rays given and the incidence of
childhood cancer, when mothers received x-rays during
pregnancy. That is a paper I published in 1963.
At that time, I was unaware of the
evidence that the children who die of cancer as a result
of the x-rays are not representative of what happens when
you have internal doses from substances that keep giving
you radiation over days, weeks, months, and years,
especially since strontium 90 deposits in the bone and
stays there for many years in children and even longer in
adults. Typically in children two to three years,
theres a half life, biologically in children, and
about five to ten years in adults. We simply
underestimated enormously, by factors of hundreds to
thousands of times, what tiny doses of internally
deposited materials do as compared to what we experienced
in over a hundred years of experience with medical
x-rays.
ICONOCLAST: What do you think needs to
happen to correct matters?
STERNGLASS: Number one, we absolutely
have to convert our nuclear plants to natural gas, which
weve done in Colorado and Colorado now has a
relatively low rate of cancer and infant mortality,
compared to other states. That can be done and has been
done in other countries too. Sweden and many of the other
European nations: Italy has now shut down its nuclear
plants, Austria shut down its nuclear plants and the
Germany is committed to converting to eliminating nuclear
plants and replacing it with wind or solar power and
geothermal power.
Were the only nation in the
world that has spent the least amount of money on
alternative methods of generating energy. Weve
invested so much in uranium in the ground, all the major
investment firms urged and invested enormously in
uranium. And we have enormous investments in oil and gas,
of course. Many people want to continue to burn coal. It
can be burned in a cleaner way, but all this has been
done much more in Europe where people felt no guilt about
having developed the bomb and tested it in the first
place.
ICONOCLAST: Is it more dangerous
having nuclear power plants or having DU ammunitions.
STERNGLASS: I would say that you
cannot make a comparison.
If you live downwind from a nuclear
plant, and you can look at our website,
<radiation.org>, youll see a series of
articles and some of them are directly available,
including my book, Secret Fallout, is
available on the internet through the website for free.
You will see that there was a decline in infant mortality
all the way since 1935 in the country and that leveled
off when we began nuclear bomb testing in Nevada in the
1950s and actually rose for the first time in 1958.
Recently, in 2002, after declining a
little bit after the end of nuclear testing in 63,
it did not go back to the baseline as expected. Infant
mortality, in a sense, is twice as many babies are dying
in this country in the first year of life as should be if
the initial trend had continued.
What weve done is to replace the
fallout from bomb testing with the so called small
permitted releases from nuclear plants.
Weve confirmed this, as
described in our website article listed there. There are
21 articles and letters to medical journals and
international referee journals that explain all this and
that warned about it but the industry and our present
government and Washington wants to continue the
construction of new nuclear plants and even consider new
nuclear weapons to replace old ones and to build bunker
busters that would supposedly penetrate deeply into
underground storage of chemical weapons and so on.
Russia, China, and England are also
reluctant to end this, but it is now happening in many
countries in the world that they are going to other
alternative means of generating electricity. And finding
other fuels and oils, such as biomass, of which I just
recently attended a conference in Austria, and many of
these countries are doing things that we should be doing.
Right now, for instance, Denmark is producing more than
20 percent of the energy by wind power alone. Sweden has
decided that in another 15 to 20 years, it will replace
all its coal and nuclear plants with alternative means of
generating electricity.
ICONOCLAST: Any other comments?
STERNGLASS: I would say that we have
to end the use of ammunition that contains uranium in any
form. We have to understand that we made a tragic mistake
in vastly underestimating the doses from internal
emittors that we inhale with our air and ingest with our
food and milk and our drinkng water.
It is simply going to destroy the
economy of this nation, as well as its health, and as
Ive published in papers, it affects the brain. It
has led to a decline in SAT scores all through the
period, typically 18 years after major nuclear test in
Nevada. There was a decline in SAT scores that could not
be explained. I predicted in the article that when the
testing would end, 18 years later, the SAT score would
begin to recover. Thats exactly what happened. It
never recovered its early level because we replaced the
fallout from the bomb test with radiactive, permitted
releases that we thought and felt, as I did when I was a
young scientist and engineer and the research laboratory
in Westinghouse here in Pittsburgh, when I believed it
was a wonderful development to replace the dirty coal
plants with clean nuclear reactors too cheap to meter.
We had no idea as to the enormous
great seriousness of the low level of continued doses
from the tiny amounts that we thought were so inocuous,
based on all the years of our studies of x-rays.
Rosalie
Bertell, PhD, GNSH, is president of the
International Institute of Concern for Public Health
(IICPH), and editor-in-chiefof International Perspectives
in Public Health.
Dr. Bertell served four years as co-chair for Canada on
the Ecosystem Health Workgroup of the Science Advisory
Board to the U.S. - Canada International Joint Commission
(IJC) on the Great Lakes, and currently serves on the IJC
Nuclear Task Force. She also serves as advisor to the
Great Lakes Health Effects Program of Health Canada, and
to the Environmental Assessment Board of Ontario.
Dr. Bertell directed the International Medical Commission
- Bhopal which investigated the aftermath of the Union
Carbide disaster in Bhopal, and of the International
Medical Commission - Chernobyl, which convened the
Tribunal on violations of the human rights of victims in
Vienna, April 1996.
She has received numerous awards and five honorary
Doctorate degrees since launching the IICPH in 1984.
Awards include United Nations Environment Programme,
Global 500 Laureate (1993); Alternative Nobel Prize:
Right Livelihood Award (1986); World Federalist Peace
Award (1988); Ontario Premiers Council on Health:
Health Innovator Award (1991); and Marguerite
DYouville Humanitarian Award, Lexington, MA (1992).
Dr. Bertell is a member of the Grey Nuns of the Sacred
Heart.
She earned a Doctorate in Biometry at the Catholic
University of America, Washington, D.C., in 1966, and has
been working ever since time in environmental
epidemiology. She has collaborated in analyses undertaken
in the U.S., Canada, Japan, the Marshall Islands,
Malaysia, India, Germany, Ukraine, and other countries.
Author of Handbook for Estimating the Health
Effects of Ionizing Radiation (1984, 1986) and the
popular non-fiction book: No Immediate Danger:
Prognosis for a Radioactive Earth, together with
other written works, Dr. Bertell has reached medical,
scientific, and popular audiences around the globe.
No Immediate Danger has been translated into
Swedish, French, German, and Finnish.
By choice, Dr. Bertell works with indigenous people and
economically developing countries as they struggle to
preserve their human rights to health and life in the
face of industrial, technological, and military
pollution.
She was a founding member of IICPH, an attempt to
institutionalize her growing concern for human survival
on an intact planet.
It violates all
traditional ideas of war.
An Interview With Dr. Rosalie
Bertell
By W. Leon Smith
EDITOR-IN-CHIEF
ICONOCLAST: I have some questions
regarding DU and thought you might be willing to discuss
it with me.
DR. ROSALIE BERTELL: I am an
environmental epidimiologist and have worked for more
than 30 years on low-dose radiation. I do know a lot
about DU.
ICONOCLAST: I understand we are seeing
a higher incidence of diabetes, cancer, and leukemia
because of DU. Have you done any studies regarding that?
BERTELL: Well, obviously, theyve
used so much of it and its an aerosol. An aerosol
can float in the air a long time and can go great
distances. So, that said, its probably pretty well
spread at least in the northern hemisphere from both Gulf
Wars, and also they used it in Kosovo and apparently in
Afghanistan. A lot of its out there. But whether or
not its connected with diabetes I cant prove.
ICONOCLAST: How does exposure affect
the body?
BERTELL: First of all, its an
internal exposure, and the current studies on internal
exposure are not very reliable, so people have been
speculating on what might be a reasonable outcome. It
certainly can upset the hormone system and that is one of
the causes of diabetes. But there is no hard evidence
that it really does this. It is logical and credible, but
the government is so focused on cancer that it
doesnt ever study it.
ICONOCLAST: Are you familiar with the
report due out on March 1 regarding the travel of DU to
the UK.
BERTELL: Yes.
ICONOCLAST: What are your thoughts on
that?
BERTELL: Well, its a well-done
study and, you now, I always keep a little reservation
because often we dont have any idea what NATO or
Aldermaston or the British military are doing, and so
when you find DU in the air, you can assume its
coming from the Gulf War, but it might be the
militarys doing something that you dont know.
Actually Chris Busby who wrote this is
a yatchsman and he did check all the weather and the wind
and the back breeze that does come from Iraq and he did a
pretty good study. Its just that you always have an
unknown factor because the military is not accountable to
people.
ICONOCLAST: Do you think the people in
the UK need to be alarmed at the results of this study?
BERTELL: Not just the people in the
UK, but people all over.
ICONOCLAST: All over the world?
BERTELL: Yeah, at least the northern
hemisphere.
ICONOCLAST: Is there anything people
can do to protect themselves from the radiation that you
know of.
BERTELL: I wish there was. About the
only thing we know to do is drink distilled water to get
heavy metals out of the body. Thats one thing.
Another is replace the proteins which would be lost. You
know, a heavy metal does two things. It forms a compound
with the chemicals in the body to get rid of heavy metals
and it also causes free radicals and the same enzyme that
gets rid of a heavy metal is also the one that fights the
free radicals. Because you have a heavy metal which is
radioactive, if it tries to get rid of the heavy metal
its not going to be there to fight the free
radicals, so you are going to have some kind of problems
internally with this. You cant use the same enzyme
for two purposes.
ICONOCLAST: So we need to eat more
protein?
BERTELL: Proteins would help because
it would replace the enzyme that you need.
ICONOCLAST: As far as trying to put a
stop to the use of depleted uranium, do you think the
public should do that?
BERTELL: I think it shouldnt be
used. Its a gas, and weve already signed the
Geneva protocol not to use gas in warfare. Its
already illegal. Its a metal fume. A metal fume is
a gas.
ICONOCLAST: I see.
BERTELL: I think a weapon like this is
so indiscriminate, its going to be exposing
civilians, women and children and the elderly. You know,
it violates all traditional ideas of war. And it exposes
people who are not fighting, whether its countries
not fighting or civilians in the country where the war
is.
That is unacceptable.
Doug
Rokke. Ph.D., is a Vietnam and Gulf War
veteran and an expert on depleted uranium. He
headed the US Armys DU Project after the Gulf War,
and is a victim of DU contamination.
He appears in the recently released DVD Beyond
Treason that was produced by Power Hour Productions
<http://www.beyondtreason.com/>, an 89-minute film
that presents comprehensive documentation from United
States Government archives of a massive cover-up,
including military and civilian experimentation, dating
back over 60 years.
There aint
no buck stopping anywhere.
An Interview With Major
Doug Rokke
By W. Leon Smith
EDITOR-IN-CHIEF
ICONOCLAST: Were doing a story
about the release thats coming out March 1 . . .
ROKKE: Chris Busbys work.
ICONOCLAST: Right. Whats your
take on it.
ROKKE: Brian Spratts comment in
The London Times hes from the Royal Acadamey
of Sciences he said if anything it was the stir-up
of the natural uranium from the shock and awe.
Thats crazy. If there was that much there to begin
with, it got there because we dumped it there.
Some other British Ministry of Defense
people said that this was released from the nuclear power
plants.
As youre totally aware, nuclear
power plants dont have that stuff to release. It is
totally encased in the power rods. Thats also
absolutely nuts.
When you look at it, it is extremely
important to note that the use of uranium munitions is
absolutely confirmed. It is thoroughly confirmed that
theyre absolutely refusing to comply with the Army
regulations to clean it up. Theyre simply refusing
to comply with the orders and mandates that regulate
medical care, not only for the U.S. troops, but for all
the coalition forces, and up and beyond that by the
Geneva Convention, all the Iraqis and all the civilians.
Thats not just Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait,
Afghanastan, or the Balkans, but here in the United
States.
I think what was so funny is that the
story broke from Chris Busbys work, where
theyre measuring the high concentrations. Now, if
theyre measuring the concentrations there in
England, theres no doubt that it is all the way
across the continent, which is extremely important. That
goes back to even more emphasis on cleaning up the
contanimation as is required by the regulation. And the
same thing, even more important, for the medical care.
When you read the story in The London
Times, and Brian Spratt says from shock and awe they
stirred up all this stuff, natural uranium is at parts
per million. Thats like one grain of pepper in a
salt shaker. With the DU, weve used thousands of
tons over there and its scattered all over the place.
On-site measurements verify that. Still photography
verifies it. Live video verifies it. All you have to do
is watch this stuff on the evening news when theyre
hitting anything because the DU signature is absolutely
distinctive. There is nothing like it. You can see from
the Bunker Busters and everything else and all
thats fired from the tanks, its just
absolutely crazy.
Now, what was really interesting
yesterday, the Army just ordered $38 million worth of DU
munitions from Allied Tech up in Minneapolis. Thats
120 mm round, 829. This stuff is awesome. Ive used
the 829 round, its absolutely awesome.
ICONOCLAST: In what regard?
ROKKE: Its a DU round. It just
literally destroys everything. Its a 120 mm round,
over 4,700 grams, incredible velocities. It just destroys
everything. Now, there are no targets left in Iraq. We
havent had any armored targets in Iraq. We
havent had any, so why would they be ordering
millions and millions of dollars worth of munitions,
except to invade Iran. Thats the only reason
theyd be doing that stuff. Weve absolutely
verified that theyve shot up apartment buildings,
theyve shot cars and trucks, theyre shooting
anything they can. If it moves, shoot it. If it
doesnt move, shoot it, too, and use DU because
its a weapon of choice. It is that good.
ICONOCLAST: Are they at the point now
that cleanup would be impossible?
ROKKE: It was from the beginning. They
never cleaned up the highway of death thats all
around Basra. They just didnt do it and they
didnt do the medical care. All the orders for
medical care have absolutely just been totally ignored.
The VA, and it should be coming out with a new
publication, but the VA publishes a thing called
Gulf War Review. Volume 13, No. 1, on page 12
was published last spring so its a year or so old.
They acknowledged that in 14 years they had only tested
270 people. I had over 400 names submitted personally.
Now you look at Chris Busbys
work. He is an incredible scientist. He is absolutely
sound, solid.
ICONOCLAST: What do you think about
the delay in getting the numbers because of the
government not releasing those?
ROKKE: The government is not going to
release that. Theyre not going to acknowledge using
this stuff. The government is not going to acknowlege the
environmental effects. They have no intention of it. The
fact that they just and went and bought 38 million more
dollars of ammo just absolutely verifies and proves it.
You know, Karen Parker has done work as far as illegal
use of uranium munitions. In the stuff that we did it
absolutely verifys it and Karen Parkers work in the
United Nations shows this stuff is illegal.
When you go to the common task right
now, it states point blank that it makes food and water
unusable. Well, you cant do that. You cant
clean it up.
In 1995, we released a report we had
started in 1992, back when we got the task, and in
December of 1992, a guy named Walker, assistant Secretary
of the Army, told us at that time to figure out ways that
would reduce the toxicity and DU so it could be used.
Obviously, you cant do that. Its impossible,
but they dont give a flying rats
ass.Youve got everything going around and around.
The guy from your hometown down there knows perfectly
well this stuff is dangerous. He knows what the orders
and the regulations are. He is the commander-in-chief of
the military. Yet hes not enforcing the mandatory
medical care. Hes not enforcing the mandatory
environmental remediation. Now, youve got
contamination measurements as far away as England. This
means you have to have incredible contamination figures
all over the place. This stuff is not like playing
checkers, where you can hop, skip, and jump a space.
ICONOCLAST: Anywhere in between there
and London and beyond?
ROKKE: In all directions. It has to
be. We know that gross contanimation exists in Iraq.
Thats a given. Weve got the videos.
Weve got the on-site measurements. The military has
acknowledged that and has not cleaned it up. The key
thing is we now have additional evidence of confirmed
contamination, which we already knew. But, the
consequences of the refusal to comply with the
environmental remediation and medical care have now
resulted in contamination all over the place.
Thats absolutely unacceptable.
Now, with this big new purchase of DU
ammo, its sort of like what is going on here? To
me, and I have to look at it from a military point of
view, for Gulf War II we started planning back in
95, was thoroughly ready to go, and they finally
implemented it.
They just had to have justification to
scare the population and do it, okay?
It had nothing to do with 9-11 or
terrorism or anything else. It was just strickly,
were gonna do it, you know, for oil shit. So
youve got all of that stuff and then youre
using it where there are no real targets. They called for
it and now weve got it all over.
Ive got video, I mean Ive
got entire apartment buildings that were totally
destroyed with DU munitions, civilian apartment
buildings. The Army officers on tape refusing to clean it
up. Someone needs to ask the president if he intends to
enforce the law.
Youve got to have some sort of
accountability.
We had gotten fed up the the Clinton
administration and so we went over to the Bush side,
hoping for improvement. It all fell apart completely. It
just fell apart.
ICONOCLAST: Why do you think it fell
apart?
ROKKE: Cheney.
ICONOCLAST: His influence?
ROKKE: Completely. When you look at
this stuff, youve got everybody lying through their
teeth. Youve got everybody lying through their
teeth and ignoring everything.. Georgie Bush didnt
know what was going on. Cheney has always been there.
Cheney was there when we did those no bid contracts with
Haliburton per Madelyn Albright back in 92, -93.
Ive still got those things.
If you look at everything with
Haliburton and with KBR,, total misuse of funds.
Theyre billing for stuff that theyre not
doing. They cant account for anything.
To me this is just symptomatic. Total
carelessness. Total disregard for everything.
Army regulations have the force of
U.S. law.
On the medical care order, Ron Peak
ordered that medical care. Colonel Bobbing, according to
the order, that supposed to make it happen.
I was born back in the time when Harry
Truman said the buck stops here. Well, there aint
no buck stopping anywhere. The buck is getting blown all
over the place.
..........................................
Major Denise Nichols (retired),
is a Gulf War veteran and retired U.S. Air Force Reserve
Major,Vice Chairman of the National Vietnam Veteran and
Gulf War Veterans Coalition.
Were
like little sheep, little lambs that didnt know the
truth.
An Interview With Major
Denise Nichols
By W. Leon Smith
EDITOR-IN-CHIEF
ICONOCLAST: What is the current status of individuals
coming back from Iraq:
NICHOLS: Theyre not getting tested for DU and
they should be. There should be an organized approach
that everybody gives urine samples as soon as they hit
the ground back home. There should be an organization
doing that across the board. Its not happening.
People are having to go to the states to at least get
the opportunity for the National Guard, and thats
ridiculous. There needs to be an organized program. Every
single one of them needs to be tested, whether they are
National Guard, reserve, or active duty.
Dr. (Henry) Dorochovich who was punished, also, who
was part of Doug Rokkes team needs to be the head
person of the lab that ultimately does this. Our trust in
the system, as currently set up, is not there because
they dont even take calls from the Gulf War vets
that were tested for DU, as they call and try to tell
them their health has changed. They are not actively
tracking these peoples health even though they
tested a small number. I say small in comparison to the
numbers of us that served in the first Gulf War.
ICONOCLAST: They did about 200 out of thousands?
NICHOLS: Oh, yeah. We had 689,000 deployed. When I
first started asking, I asked for heavy metal testing at
the VA. They wouldnt do it. I begged them. I said,
Come on. This might give us some answers of
whats going on. That was back in
93-94. It hasnt changed one iota.
They are passing bills in the states. Its a
shame because people are trying to do something
productive, but I doubt that it will really change
anything because theres not an organized approach
to getting everybody tested. And it shouldnt just
be if you think theres a problem. No. There is a
problem. Accept that there was DU used in theatre that we
want to know just as much as the firefighters in New York
want to know their health status. It should be open. It
should be transparent.
Ive been in D.C. when Melissa McDermott
presented. She wouldnt address the questions from
people that were there. She wouldnt answer those.
She brushed them off. So the transparency is not there.
ICONOCLAST: Is there a disconnect between the Congress
and the Administration on this? This testing is required
by law, is it not?
NICHOLS: By law its not. They say its
available if they request it, and so many of them
dont understand. Were like little sheep,
little lambs that didnt know the truth. I was over
there and served on the border between Saudi and Iraq and
I finally sent my urine off 10 years after to Dr.
Dorochovichs uranium metals project, and it came
back with a trace. I was showing even that. Theyre
not even doing hair sampling, which would probably be
cheaper and would show it right off the bat.
Theyre not making that information available to
the troops. You know, heres a hair sampling kit if
you want to pay for it yourself.
Theyre not doing anything, nothing in an
organized manner, and its because they dont
want to acknowledge what the truth and the hazards are.
We now have three bills up there, but when the Democrats
put it out the Republicans arent signing on.
Ive been pushing those three bills and telling
people to send e-mails and write letters, call your
Representatives, get them to sign on to these bills, show
them that we are still alive out here and we want this
done. There are three bills. If you go on
<house.gov> and click on thomas and put
in DU, theyll pop up.
ICONOCLAST: Do you know what the thinking of the
military brass is on DU?
NICHOLS: Basically, to not trigger any controversy.
ICONOCLAST: The reason for that would be...
NICHOLS: Lets compare this to Agent Orange.
Tactically DU works great, just like Agent Orange
defoliated the triple canopy forest in Vietnam, cut down
sniper attacks and all that. Okay. DU is a weapon that is
very, very effective. They dont want to give it up.
When youre fighting a war, you want the best, to
protect lives in, but they dont look at the
long-term health effects. They never do. They never have.
And until they learn that lesson, people need to keep
speaking up and we need to keep educating and trying to
get there. Everybody needs to be involved in bringing it
up.
ICONOCLAST: Are you seeing a lot of soldiers in
greater numbers with DU problems?
NICHOLS: Ill tell you whats going on right
now. Gulf War vet have kind of gone quiet. They are
trying to get the compensation if they havent. If
they have gotten their compensation, theyre afraid
to speak out. The other thing is when we have the
casualties coming back like we do, arm and legs missing,
the traumatic brain injuries, its very hard for
each of us to stand up and keep going on because those
are so obvious and such outstanding wounds. Its
almost like, Well, were still alive.
Were whole. We would have rather lost a leg than
deal with this lifelong health problem. And cancer
is topping the deaths that we continue to have. We
cant get them to do a Social Security match for the
deaths of the Gulf War veterans for Gulf War I.
But, you know, having been a service person, you
hesitate to come forward. If they have compensation, they
are fearful theyll lose it, no matter what little
bit theyve gotten. Theyre scared to speak up.
And then when we talk about the new soldiers,
its the same way. They saw their buddies killed. I
found a few of them when I went to the NGWRC meeting. We
had a handful of them come in. And theres the
obviously undiagnosed illnesses that are going on and the
strange illnesses.
One guy had already had his perithyroid gland removed.
I mean, thats not normal, not at an early age. But
his driver was killed. Its hard to get them to
stand up and start talking about these things.
Weve got so much legitimate PTSD thats not
being dealt with effectively and you dont want to
mix the cases, because there are those with PTSD that are
ill and will be ill and they are separate things.
Thats what weve had to battle against.
They wanted to stick us in the PTSD and for a long time,
therefore, tried to get people help. Our vets that were
Vietnam vets, I was told the only way I can get them help
is put them under PTSD, and Id go, Hes
got some PTSD, but hes got medical problem that are
separate. Claim them both. Dont let them classify
them one way or the other.
Were still with that problem of dealing with all
the different issues. Its like the whole system is
broken and nobody is seeing that it is broken.
You have people raising money publicly for the center
thats going to be developed in San Antonio. They
are out there raising money now to try to get a
state-of-the-arts center to help our amputees to recover
as quickly and to the upmost.
ICONOCLAST: Are you familiar with the DU study being
released on March 1?
NICHOLS: Yes. I havent read the whole study, but
have picked up information coming out of Britain by Chris
Busby.
ICONOCLAST: I guess the bottom line is that it
somewhat proves that DU travels.
NICHOLS: Oh, yeah. Theres no doubt in my mind. I
was at the border of Saudi/Iraq, and I have been saying
that all along that we had sandstorms, and the sandstorms
were like hurricanes coming through. And youre
telling me that stuff didnt carry with the sand?
Oh, come on. And not only that, the sand was contaminated
when we were over there, when they hit the chemical
facilities on the Thomasia and 50 others that we
cant get any proof out because we havent had
anybody come forward with the videotape like we did for
Thomasia. And, the chemical contamination. Youve
got a mixture of contamination on Gulf War I.
Gulf War II is, hopefully, just DU and anthrax.
Hopefully. And the sand factor, which is a factor since
sand has a silicon content.
Look at David Bloom, riding his Bloom-mobile, sucking
in the sand. I was sitting there going, My
God. And wondering if he took the shots that the
military offered, which I bet he did, and we found out
since that he did, breathing hazardous material into his
lungs in the back of the Bloom-mobile, covering the
story. And so, having been involved in a study that
looked at hypercoagulation, a small sample study that
every time we tested a Gulf War vet he showed positive,
and that means you have sick blood, blood thats
going to clot, and so when he died a few of us were
raising hell on trying to get people to pay attention to
that hazard. We thought with David Blooms death
that we could get some attention paid.
We got a little-bitty blip.
And all our soldiers were out there going through it,
too.
Geeze, guys, the Agent Orange bill didnt get
passed until 91, and it didnt effectively
take care of their problems. They got limited to one
agent, and there was red, white, and blue. There
wasnt just dioxin. Okay?
The vets get so tired of trying to go up there and
push. Youre sick and youre trying to advocate
for other sick Gulf War vets. It gets mighty hard. I go
to every meeting of the research advisory committee in
D.C. They meet about three times a year now, and Im
always bugging them. Come on, guys.
I got a couple of them to go to the environmental
medicine meeting, the chairman and the co-chairman. I was
getting them together with a couple of docs, who were big
doctors at one time, and an active duty flight surgeon
who had gone into environmental medicine, who had the
expertise.
In 1990, while we were all going over there, they knew
we were going to come home sick. They went to this VA
headquarters and begged, Let us teach you all what
we do with environmental medicine. We can train the
doctors. You can put this program in effect, finding out
whats missing in the body and replacing those
components as they become deficient so that your body can
continue to try to fight.
And, they were ignored.
And, weve been lied to.
They kept saying, Were going to give you
new money for research. Well, sh..., that was a big lie.
Theyre dodging it every which way!
I just sit here and I shake my head every day, staying
in tune with whats going on.
You know, with this port security and Katrina?
Im going, Boy, I only thought one part of the
system was broken, veterans care and all. I look around
and feel sorry for my daughter. I feel sorry for our
kids. Ive been out there trying to make a
difference for the veterans. I sacrificed my life and my
relationship with my daughter to go and do that a month
at a time in D.C. My God, I shouldnt have had to do
that.
When some of us got tested Dr. Dorochovich collected
urine samples to start getting them tested, and every
urine sample got lost. He decided, Well, Ill
start testing them here, and he started ordering
equipment and the VA fired him, of course. A remarkable
man. He and Dr. Rokke have suffered. The whole team has
suffered. I bumped into them one at a time until I had
the whole team, and I didnt know who they were
until Doug Rokke sat me down and said, Now
lets see, little Air Force nurse, lets see
who all youve met. And kind of explained to
me who the team Army was. Interesting. I went Oh,
my God.
What are my choices? I was over there. Thought the
anthrax shot was there to protect us, until I got home
and found out the truth. Thought the PB was supposed to
be good. Had my people take them. Didnt force them,
though. We werent told anything.
Im one of the sick vets, too.
I also lost a brother-in-law, and now my brother. I
will be headed back to Dallas shortly. I lost my
brother-in-law in June and in November my brother got
diagnosed and is dying of cancer. Hes back in the
hospital and things arent looking good, so Im
trying to get my act together, my mind and emotional
being together enough to face that.
So many things in our country are broken, and I hope
America is waking up. I hope America looks and sees
whats going on with this.
One of the things that this country is supposed to be
responsible for is defense and then taking care of
veterans, and then natural disasters.
And theyre failing.
Every time I look I go, My God. Its
not just this administration. This has been going on for
years. And our Congressmen and our Senators end up being
paid for. Their seats are paid for. There are people that
want to run that dont have the money backup and
cant run. There are some good veterans running with
a heart and soul, but they dont have the money, and
they probably wont win, maybe one or two,
hopefully.
The shame of it is that our country is not the way it
was set up to be. with the common person going up there.
Its ruled by money and corporations. Thats
part of the apathy in America.
I look for small changes, like in 93 or
94 we lost Jason Clifton, who was out of Oklahoma.
There was a hustle then, because the family wanted to
donate his brain for research, to see if it could help us
at all. And weve had ones after that. I kept
bringing that up to the research advisory committee. Why
dont we have a place that if people want to donate
these parts when they die, that might help us to find
some answers for what to do, whatever. Well, lo and
behold, we got the money for that and one that just died
of cancer donated his brain. So they moved fast because
we had one dying of cancer at the time.
On the other hand, as a lot of my vets tell me,
Denise, dammit, they know! Why do we have to spend
money on research? And I agree with them. There are a lot
of unpublished studies in the Army and they damn-well
know and you can read it in the DU documents the way some
of them are worded. If the consequences of DU became
known it would become a political hot subject. If we
could get people to carry the story. Where do you start?
During the Clinton adminstration we had to deal with
the stain on the blue dress, over the vets. Fires in
California, I mean, weve gone through everything.
When we have thought we had a hot story that would make
it, something would come up and take the news media off.
I feel for the Katrina people still living in tents.
Youre history.
Theyre all battling with whose fault it is and
they leave the people, you know, just out there. I
identify with them. Im going, Hey, a new
group.
Ive got some Vietnam vets who have done
investigations and have gone in quietly and, We
know theres a sex trade out there, but they
dont talk about that. When they do a story they
miss what they really should concentrate on and Im
going, God!
You know, theyre controlled.
Weve tried to do rallies in D.C. Well, its
hard to get people to travel. Just like seeing the few
that went up there to the Katrina hearings, a handfull of
them. How do you get the masses up there to say
Were not going to take it anymore.
...........................................
Ann Ham works
in public affairs, U.S. Army Center for Health Promotion
and Preventive Medicine.
There is exposure, but
exposure doesnt mean that its a threat.
An Interview With Ann Ham
By W. Leon Smith
EDITOR-IN-CHIEF
ANN HAM: I know you are on a search for information
about depleted uranium and the heath effects.
ICONOCLAST: Right. What prompted this is a story that
came out in the London Times last Sunday. Are you
familiar with that, about the study that Chris Busby did?
ANN HAM: I honestly am not. There are a lot of people
doing different studies about depleted uranium.
ICONOCLAST: Well, apparently, they were able to come
up with some monitoring numbers....
HAM: Really low, low levels?
ICONOCLAST: There was a spike in the radiation in the
days....
HAM: Oh, in a certain area.
ICONOCLAST: There at Aldermaston...
HAM: It wasnt right in London, was it?
ICONOCLAST: I dont know, I dont have a map
in front of me.
HAM: Yes, I did see that, but I think they determined,
from what I read in the newspaper, that it was probably
the content of the soil and someone had assumed that it
had come through the air from...
ICONOCLAST: Shock and awe?
HAM: Yeah, but I dont remember all the details.
ICONOCLAST: Of course, I have a copy of that report,
but also I have a copy of that article that was published
in the London Times and a guy named Brian Spratt
whos with the British Royal Society said that the
uranium could have come from natural uranium of soil
kicked up by shock and awe. That would indicate that it
did travel. What I am wondering is regarding depleted
uranium there in Iraq, in the testing of the troops, is
that being done on a regular basis. Is that mandatory?
HAM: I dont think its mandatory anywhere,
but the process is when soldiers, all troops, redeploy,
or come back from deployment in southwest Asia they are
required to fill out a post-deployment health assessment
form. It asks many question about your health, but it
does have a whole series of places to bubble-in: do you
think you might have been exposed to the following.
Its under exposures. And there they list whatever
they think theyve been exposed to and
other for any other concerns. Also, after
they complete this form, then the next thing they do is
see a health-care professional. This could be a doctor.
It would usually be a doctor, a health-care provider.
This is a requirement. Its been a requirement for
at least two years now, that they complete this form and
turn in their concerns about exposures.
When anyone comes back, if they have concerns about DU
exposure, they absolutely can be tested. The Army will
test them.
ICONOCLAST: And the Army pays for it?
HAM: Yes. Or the military pays for it. The DoD pays
for it. And, as you know, some states now, I dont
know how theyre paying for it, but, I believe
its Louisiana, uhm...
ICONOCLAST: Connecticut?
HAM: Connecticut, and New York is working to do it, to
provide testing for all. And, you know, Im really
not clear on whether its military who deploy from
those bases in those states or if its from people
who are native of that state.
ICONOCLAST: I believe its national guardsmen.
HAM: I think youre right. So, they would belong
to the state. Im not sure who is doing that
testing. I dont think weve been able to
figure that out.
ICONOCLAST: Its paid for by the federal
govenment?
HAM: I dont think so. I would have to dig deeper
to find that. I dont think I know whos paying
for it. I havent followed the Congressional
proceedings. I know New York is pushing to do this right
now. I dont know how they are getting their funding
to do it.
ICONOCLAST: Are you familiar with U.S. Army regulation
700-48, which mandates the immediate thorough
environmental remediation of DU?
HAM: Im not.
ICONOCLAST: I believe that was approved around the
first Gulf war.
HAM: Is it about remediation about the terrority
were in?
ICONOCLAST: Bascially that whenever depleted uranium
munitions are used, that clean-up follows.
HAM: Are you sure that it was depleted uranium?
ICONOCLAST: I believe it was.
HAM: And not simply uranium?
ICONOCLAST: I believe it was depleted uranium.
Lets say a soldier doesnt sign off that he
was exposed. And then he gets back to the states and
health problems do occur that would indicate exposure.
What are his options at that point?
HAM: As far as I know, the form is not a closed loop.
I believe they could express concern and they could be
tested. Is that what youre asking?
ICONOCLAST: Uh, huh.
HAM: I know they can be tested, because Im
thinking of the national guard in New York.
ICONOCLAST: Whenever they fill the form out, are they
educated as to what the possibilities of exposure are?
HAM: No. No. Theyre briefed on all kinds of
medical threats. They get a medical threat briefing as
soon as they are there or before they deploy and they are
told about washing their hands and that kind of thing,
but I dont know if anyone could speak on if every
single soldier, airman, navy, got a briefing on that. I
cant guarantee that happens.
ICONOCLAST: Do you have any statistics as to the
number of soldiers that do claim that they were perhaps
exposed to depleted uranium?
HAM: No, I dont.
ICONOCLAST: Do you know where I would find those?
HAM: I would have to ask around. I can ask my health
physics people. They might have a source for that.
Theyve been working on this and other materials a
long time.
ICONOCLAST: From a health-care standpoint, what
position does your organization take on depleted uranium?
Do you think its a threat?
HAM: No. No. Its a threat as a weapon.
ICONOCLAST: I mean for health.
HAM: No. No. I do not.
ICONOCLAST: So you dont feel that there is
exposure due to depleted uranium?
HAM: There is exposure, but exposure doesnt mean
that its a threat. I mean, Im exposed to lots
of things, like bad perfume, but its not a threat.
ICONOCLAST: Do you know how many soldiers have been
treated.
HAM: No, no. I dont. Once again, Ill have
to check other sources. First of all, we arent a
clearinghouse for all soldiers, DoD, service members,
either before they deploy or after they deploy.
ICONOCLAST: Is there a clearinghouse anywhere?
HAM: Ill have to ask and find out. I dont
know that.
.........................................
Captain William Roberts is
a media spokesman for Multi-National Forces in Iraq.
An Interview With
Captain William Roberts
Depleted uranium arms
are not utilized by units currently deployed here in
Iraq.
By W. Leon Smith
EDITOR-IN-CHIEF
ICONOCLAST: We are doing a story pertaining to what
was published in the London Times last Sunday. They did a
story about depleted uranium radiation traveling to the
U.K. during shock and awe. What is being done regarding
U.S. Army regulation 700-48 that mandates immediate
thorough environmental remediation in Iraq?
CAPT. WILLIAM ROBERTS: Actually, sir, any questions
pertaining to things that happened in units that are no
longer deployed to Iraq need to be referred either to the
units that were here at the time or to the Pentagon U.S.
Army Public Affairs Office. The units that are here not
do not utilize that type of munition.
ICONOCLAST: They do not utilize what? Depleted
uranium?
ROBERTS: Depleted uranium arms are not utilized by
units currently deployed here in Iraq. We dont have
that type of combat operation during this time. And we
cannot speak for units that are not here under our
command. So any question on actions or activity that took
place by previously deployed units have to either be sent
to the units deployed here at that time or to the Office
of the Chief of Public Affairs at the Pentagon which I
believe is your appropriate point of contact and their
contact information is available on the internet, at
<www.usarmy.mil> and go to the public affairs link.
ICONOCLAST: When did they cease using depleted
uranium?
ROBERTS: When combat operations ceased. We had uh, as
I said I cant speak for when they were used or what
they were used for, but we do not have them. Were
not exactly facing an armored threat here in Iraq at this
time.
..............................................
Army
Orders $77 Million Worth Of New DU Rounds
MINNEAPOLIS The U.S. Army has
extended a previous order for 120-mm ammunition for its
main battle tank to $77 million, it was announced last
week.
Alliant Techsystems revealed that the
original contract for M829A3 tank rounds had been
extended for fiscal year 2006 by $38 million, increasing
the number of rounds to 35,000.
This type of round, which is based on
a depleted uranium penetrator, has been described as the
most advanced armor-piercing kinetic-energy ordnance
available, with outstanding accuracy and lethality.
Although critics claim that radiation
from depleted uranium is a potential health hazard to
tank crews and to individuals exposed to the material
upon impact with its target, the military says that the
heavy depleted uranium is not only a superb
armor-piercer, but is a hardener for the Abrams
armor.
..........................................
Tim
Hix is a Vietnam veteran exposed to
Agent Orange, dying of cancer.
That reminds me of
the ash with Mount St. Helens. It darkened the skies in
different continents.
An Interview With Tim
Hix
By Deborah Mathews
ICONOCLAST REPORTER
ICONOCLAST: When were you in Vietnam?
HIX: 66, 67, and 68.
ICONOCLAST: Then, did you know that
you were exposed to Agent Orange?
HIX: Not at that time.
ICONOCLAST: When did you find out?
HIX: Well, I suspected when my brother
died from it nine years ago and he and I had been
stationed together.
ICONOCLAST: Where were you stationed?
HIX: All different places. We were on
the rivers and in the different harbors. Actually, we
were up in the estuaries.
ICONOCLAST: You said your brother
passed away nine years ago and up until that time you
didnt think of Agent Orange?
HIX: Not really. Here about four years
ago I started thinking that he died of it and I had heard
them talking about the Agent Orange registry. You have to
sign up for it. I just went down and signed up and they
do all kinds of testing on you. They told me that
everything was fine. Well, that night, the Central Texas
Agent Orange doctor, this oriental lady called me and she
said that there was an abnormality in your blood, but it
is nothing to worry about. So they did more testing and
stuff and then said that I had cancer. I was diagnosed in
June of 2002 with prostate cancer and in the lymph nodes
too. Thats how it started. Now, not only do I have
the cancer from it, but I also have the type two
diabetes, which is also caused from Agent Orange.
ICONOCLAST: How long was your brother
sick before he passed away?
HIX: About seven or eight month. They
first thought he had pneumonia and then they found that
it was mesothelioma.
ICONOCLAST: Have you had any trouble
getting any of your treatments?
HIX: No, I havent had any
trouble that way.
ICONOCLAST: Did they have to establish
that you were sick from Agent Orange.
HIX: No, Im fighting that to
this day. Thats what my appeal is. Theyre
saying that I wasnt. These things are caused by
Agent Orange and that is presumed by the VA to be true,
but because I was in the Navy, they say if you
didnt walk on the ground, which that wasnt my
primary function. Had I been in the infantry, there would
be no problem. You get it automatically. Air Force and
Navy have a problem. The thing of it is that Agent Orange
was airborne. They sprayed it. That is my contention.
One of the guys that I served
side-by-side with has been drawing 100 percent
compensation since 1996. They arbitrarily changed the
rule, the VA did. They didnt change the
congressional law, but they changed their manual.
ICONOCLAST: Why?
HIX: So they dont have to pay.
It encompasses hundreds of thousands.
ICONOCLAST: So, now, you are getting
all of your medical care through the VA?
HIX: I still pay for it. I had to have
a radical prostatectomy in September of 2002 and I got
the bill and consequently ended up filing bankruptcy.
This stuff is only paid for by the VA if its
service connected and that is what I am fighting, to get
the service connection.
ICONOCLAST: They say that your cancer
was not a result of your time in the service in Vietnam.
HIX: Yes, and I even have a letter
from my radiation oncologist at the Dallas VA Hospital.
He is Vietnamese. He was in the very same places I was
and he wrote a letter that is now in my file in
Washington D.C., that in his professional opinion it was
caused from Agent Orange in my military service.
ICONOCLAST: What do you know about DU?
HIX: Not a whole lot, but some.
Its going to cause all kinds of cancers and things
like Agent Orange did.
ICONOCLAST: There is a study that has
just come out about the DU showing up in England.
HIX: That is another thing about Agent
Orange exposure. For a long time, they wanted you to
prove where you were. I have a friend who had a cotton
crop that was killed by diaxon, which is the active
ingredient in Agent Orange. It had drifted over a hundred
miles, right here in the state of Texas, from one guy
killing some brush with it. It drifted over one hundred
miles and killed their cotton crop and they collected on
it. What is the difference there from Vietnam. It could
drift a hundred miles there the same as here.
ICONOCLAST: Going back to Vietnam, you
werent given any information to alert you to risks?
HIX: No. We were gung ho. They are
now, too, and we just have another Vietnam. I dont
disagree that Sadaam should have been ousted, but we
should have done it differently.
ICONOCLAST: I had an interview with
Daniel Ellsberg and one of the first things he said to me
is that he wished he had done what he had earlier and it
would have made more of a difference. He also compared
Iraq to Vietnam. If you could do something to get
information out there to others . . .
HIX: I already do, but Id like
to get through this legal stuff and help other guys in my
same situation. There are a lot of people who need help
and answers. Id like to see something like that
happen with this depleted uranium.
I think DU is like Agent Orange. It
kills every living thing. The vegetation it kills
quickly, the people, it takes years to manifest.
ICONOCLAST: With DU, studies show that
it is traveling around the globe.
HIX: That reminds me of the ash with
Mount St. Helens. That cloud of ash traveled everywhere.
It darkened the skies in different continents.
......................................................
I Love
DU!
Former U.N. Weapons
Inspector Scott Ritter Discusses DU Weaponry
By Nathan Diebenow
ASSOCIATE EDITOR
AUSTIN Scott Ritter, former
U.N. weapons inspector during most of the Clinton
Administration from 1991 to 1998, unapologetically said
that he looked at the use of DU weapons from the
standpoint of a U.S. marine in the heat of battle.
You put me in charge of a
couple hundred marines, and were dug in and a T80
battle tank comes over. I dont want to fight an
equal fight. I dont want him anywhere close to me.
Im going to open up a 120 millimeter battletank gun
with continued depleted uranium rounds that will carve up
that tank like a hot knife through butter and kill
everyone inside before they can even come close to
me, said Ritter, who, as a Marine, served as a
ballistic missile advisor to Gen. Norman Schwartzkopf
during the first Gulf War.
I love DU! he added
during a talk at the St. Andrews Presbyterian Church
sanctuary in Austin last Saturday. I want to be
able to use it on my 20 millimeter Bushmaster, on my
LAB25, so itll cut through T62 tanks. Why? I
dont want an equal fight, ladies and gentlemen. You
send me to war, and Ill kill the enemy. Im
going to slaughter them! Im going to eviscerate
them! Im going to annihilate them! And Im
going to do it in a way that brings all my marines home
or at least as many of them as I can. THATS-MY-JOB!
My job is to wage war, not make the world lovey dovey.
You click the on switch on, its going
on, and Im going to them, and you better give me
the weapons to do the job.
And you better understand that
when you give me those weapons, and I use those weapons,
there are repercussions. When I pull that trigger on a DU
weapon Im creating conditions that are harmful to
American service members. Im creating conditions
that are harmful to innocent civilians that have to live
in that area. If you dont want that, dont
send me to war.
...................................................
Karl
Schwarz is a 2008 candidate for U.S.
President, an author, and a nanotechnology company
founder whose son served in Iraq.
They have exposed
close to a million of our troops.
An Interview With Karl
Schwarz
By W. Leon Smith
EDITOR-IN-CHIEF
ICONOCLAST: Regarding Chris
Busbys study about DU traveling, I would like to
get a political perspective from you. You know, The
London Times printed a short story about this recently
and the Ministry of Defense there said that its
unfeasible that depleted uranium could have traveled so
far.
KARL SCHWARZ: Well, thats what
their stance is, but if you look a lot closer at the
comments of this ministry and also the Royal Academy
people, they come up with two diametrically opposed
solutions and answers. One person says that this was
natural uranium that was stirred up in the atmosphere
through shock and awe in Iraq. If natural uranium could
reach there, by God, the DU probably could, too.
I mean, thats just to cut
straight through the political-speak, okay?
You have to read that article real
close to detect that, and you might even have to quote
the article or cite it. They are actually saying that
no, this wasnt DU from the use of depleted
uranium weapons, this was natural uranium from Iraq that
got stirred up into the atmosphere through shock and awe.
Now thats the official British stance
one. Okay?
Official British stance
two is somewhat more problematic. Evidently,
according to this governmental official, theyve had
a Chernobyl that they didnt bother to tell their
citizens about. Because he claims that uranium was local
source from their own nuclear reactors, you know,
electrical power plants, and didnt have anything to
do with DU from Iraq. Well, as a matter of fact, the
reason that they put them in pellets and they put them in
cores and they sink them in heavy water is so that
uranium cant get out, and they are sealed.
Those plants do not put any uranium in
the air whatsoever. If they do, they have to shut them
down. Period.
ICONOCLAST: What are your thoughts
politically on this. What do you think our government
needs to be doing?
SCHWARZ: I think our government needs
to face this issue head-on, not only as a public policy
issue for the troops that theyve had exposed to
this ever since Desert Storm which includes Bosnia, which
includes Afghanistan, also includes Iraqi Freedom, the
second go-round over here. They have used depleted
uranium weapons in all four of those deployments. The
troops, if you start backtracking, you dont ever
read about this, but you can find it if you look for
Bosnia syndrome, like Desert Storm syndrome. One of the
reasons and how I got on this story, Leon, was up in
Canada. They have a thing called the Uranium Medical
Research Center.
They actually have one in Canada and
one in the United States. The Canadians told me,
Oh, for the record, the reason we didnt go to
Iraq is we are already seeing some huge health issues on
the Canadian troops that participated in Desert Storm,
Bosnia, and Afghanistan. Were not going to be
exposing our folks to this stuff anymore. Were
against it. Now, theyre coming to grips in
their own country with some very real and very tragic
health stories, and our government is sitting on it.
Now, from a public policy viewpoint,
they need to take care of our veterans.
They put them over there on deployment
on questionable issues. If you look back at this issue,
we have created the circumstances to attack Iraq the
first time. There were some very questionable issues
surrounding Clintons bombing of Bosnia. If you go
back on 9/11, dissect that story, it wont stand the
light of day. Within 12 hours they were ready to attack
Afghanistan and they were actually practicing that
invasion in the late spring and early spring of 2001. And
then, all of a sudden, we find out that everything about
Iraq was fabricated.
So, basically, the last four
engagements, the last four deployments, are under
questionable circumstances. And they have exposed close
to a million of our troops. Now, if you go back and start
to look at the health implications thats going on,
they put 425,000 Americans in Desert Storm and over
300,000 of them are having medical disability issues.
They go over there some of the
healthiest people on the face of this planet and come
home with their life devastated.
ICONOCLAST: I know that some of the
state legislatures are in the process of allowing testing
for DU...
SCHWARZ: They are mandating it.
Actually 10 have the legislation pending and two others
have passed it.
ICONOCLAST: Do you think Texas should
do it?
SCHWARZ: Yes.
ICONOCLAST: Why havent we?
SCHWARZ: Why havent we? Because
its not politcally acceptable to this federal
government. A lot of the states will run scared if the
federal government starts threatening them with loss of
funding.
ICONOCLAST: Do you think that
thats going to happen to some of those 12 states?
SCHWARZ: They may have some toning to
do. I heard that an overwhelming number of the
Republicans in the Louisiana House and Senate voted to
pass that legislation down there. Im trying to get
it stirred up in Arkansas. Thats where my son is
from. I want him tested. He was over there a year in the
Green Zone. Even though he wasnt out where they
were dropping the bombs, this stuff was spread
everywhere.
I talked to one lady down in Florida.
Shes a doctor and tested 87 of them and every one
was positive.
ICONOCLAST: If they test positive,
whats their future?
SCHWARZ: Well, first off they are
going to have to get a urine test and chromosome test,
which costs about six grand to get those tests done.
There are some things they can do related to heavy metal
poisoning treatment. You know, if you can get the damn
metal out of your system through various medical means of
treating metal poisoning, the prognosis may be much
better than it is right now.
ICONOCLAST: High protein diets?
SCHWARZ: That, but they also give you
certain types of medicine to flush it out of your system.
This stuff tends to go for you liver, your kidneys, your
brain, and most of the vets Ive talked to about
this are having side effects, blurred vision, blurred
memory, aching joints. They went over there healthy and
came home like they were crippled.
ICONOCLAST: Is the federal government
doing anything for them?
SCHWARZ: Stalling. The VA has been
locked up in committee. They arent even proposing
to be out with the fourth draft until December 2006. I
can tell you that for some of the people who served in
2003, that will be too late.
ICONOCLAST: What do you think needs to
happen?
SCHWARZ: I think the government needs
to (1) honor its word to the U.S. soldiers, (2) I think
they need to start testing anywhere downstream of these
firing ranges, the bases, the nuclear weapons labs, the
storage facilities. I think they need to start looking at
the watershed and air drifting issues right here in the
states. And I think they need to come public with what
they are detecting on these high volume air sensors. We
have them. Ive been on some on two of our military
bases and also government labs. They have those sensors
on them.
And, for some reason, they dont
want anybody to know about it.
Now, the other thing Ive noted,
because Im watching it, is the story that broke in
the U.K. (about DU traveling) and was posted within 24
hours in Australia and has not been picked up by any U.S.
newspaper, and Ive personally put about 600 of them
on notice. I also sent it to Canada, Germany, France,
Ireland, U.K., Australia, Japan. The world desk, national
news editors.
ICONOCLAST: What about the people that
live in Great Britain. Have you heard any feedback?
SCHWARZ: Yes. Some of the people on my
e-mail update list, who are from Armenia, all the west to
Singapore and Australia. Then theres about 18 or 19
of them in the U.K. They have all posted this on their
blogs if they have blogs. Canada has been very actively
pushing this out, because now its adding up in
their heads why so many Canadian troops came home sick.
A lot of the Canadians I know said
they felt ashamed when their government wouldnt go
to Iraq with us. That is the first time Canada has not
joined us in a jolly good war. They felt a little
ashamed, but now they are starting to see the truth. In
fact, some of them that served in Afghanistan are now
dead. Some of them in Bosnia, now dead.
ICONOCLAST: Do we need to change our
munitions to something different?
SCHWARZ: Yes.
ICONOCLAST: Or can we?
SCHWARZ: We could. Well, we can and we
cant. Sometimes were a victim of our own
successes. Im pretty sure the Russians and the
Chinese are going to try to come up with tanks that have
the same type of depleted uranium and armor that the
Abrams tank has. We cant penetrate them. A
tungsten-tipped projectile will not be effective enough.
Youd have to kind of shoot it in the ass, like the
tiger thing. You cant go head-to-head with them.
What you could do is tremendously
scale down the reasoning behind some of this stuff. Like
theyre using depleted uranium as penetrators for
bunker busters just so they can bust those up. There are
ways to take those bunkers out in a ground assault. You
could get in there and blow the doors open, take the
thing out that way. You might have to bomb it from the
air. You might lose a few more people, but at least you
arent condemning millions of people.
The story that you saw coming out of
the United Kingdom is a very typical response that even
U.S. government labs do when they get caught with their
britches down polluting the environment and exposing
people to nuclear contamination. They basically always
try to say Oh, that was natural uranium. The
only problem is once you start doing these samples, you
find plutonium, you find neptunium, and you find U-236,
which is not naturally occurring, at least plutonium and
U-236 are not. And they are finding that, as well. Now,
those two things are highly radioactive and highly toxic,
in fact, there may be one or two things invented by man
that are more toxic that plutonium. That is lethal stuff.
It doesnt take much to do you in.
ICONOCLAST: So their arguments
dont hold water?
SCHWARZ: They dont hold water.
And this is one of those things, as long as they
obfuscate, they are literally guilty of genocide. They
are guilty of cruel and inhumane treatment of our
soldiers. And, you stop and think about it, our allies,
our coalition partners are starting to see this and I
think thats why they are starting to fold up on
some of these military policies. Theyre not going
to keep exposing their populations to this crap.
And now, if this story is true, that
theyre being exposed thousands of miles away, you
may seen a worldwide uprising to nuclear arms, period.
That would be a good thing. Darn, Leon, Im not even
an anti-war person.
Im standing here, outside, right
now, looking around. I mean, what if this crap is right
out here on these peoples yards? Theyre out
here doing their gardening, maybe getting exposed to this
crap. You have no way of knowing, and it doesnt
take much of this stuff to put your health over the edge.
ICONOCLAST: Some of the scientists
Ive talked to say that it is everywhere, and that
its in what we consume.
SCHWARZ: In an article I have coming
out tomorrow, I talk about how this is probably in our
water, its in our food chain, its in the air
we breathe, its in the materials we touch. You
know, yeah, its around. And that scares me because
Ive been sitting here for the last 25 years
wondering why my friends are getting so damned sick with
disorders they dont even have names for.
About the only science that Im
aware of that can address this is nanotechnology. They
have not come up with any chemical means whatsoever to
neutralize this crap. Nanotechnology might be the answer.
ICONOCLAST: How would that be the
answer? What form?
SCHWARZ: You are actually getting down
to submolecular size that could actually trap and catch
this stuff, maybe change its properties, with the damage
caused to the nanotube and not to the human body.
Karl Schwarz is a 2008 candidate for U.S.
President, an author, and a nanotechnology company
founder whose son served in Iraq.
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